Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

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braincell
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by braincell »

garyb wrote:well, you may like the sound of those channel strips, but don't think they're even close to using the real thing.
The SSL Alpha Channel is a less expensive piece of hardware. It was created for home DAW use. Not as good as their full consoles yet sounds better than software alone. It's worth the extra money in my opinion.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by garyb »

anything for home use is just something that is branded with a famous brand.
it doesn't make the thing useless crap, but it does mean that it's not going to be the same as the real thing, nor will it be close.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by Nestor »

All I can say and assure to everyone, is that: every passed by year, what I do sounds better and better than before due to the amazing achievements in the VST world. Once upon a time, Guitar Rig, from NI, was kind of a dream, and it sounded pretty cool and still does if you use it with moderation. But now we have Positive Grid BIAS Fx, Pedal and Amp. These new products have literally blown away all other guitar plugins. You can achieve extremely well produced tracks with it, and I bet you cannot distinguish the real from the virtual anymore, once it is processed, mixed and mastered. This is what many famous guitarists are saying themselves about BIAS, guys that use it every day in state of traditional hardware. We have also Blue3, from GG Audio, at just $99. It reproduces B-3s, C-3s and A100s in a pretty well achieved new standard, hard to believe, actually. Then we have Overloud Mark Studio 2, which is truly amazing, it sounds GREAT! Then you have the latest DAWs, like Studio One and Cubase, which is, in my understanding, getting back to what we want, slowly, but surely. Absolutely wonderful sequencers with tones and tones of possibilities for whatever you want to do. Then you have Vir2 BASiS, which I may hate because I’m a bass player, but it sounds very, very well. You will not make a solo with it, but you can definitely make a perfect soundtrack bass for a song and more. For more deep end you have Substance by Output, amazing new bass engine. And there is yet another virtual bass, I don’t remember its name right now, but it is a killer, it sounds pretty much as a bass player standing there, in front of you. As I say, for songs and normal bass lines, you bet you will not be able to tell, in most cases. And if you do, it is just a matter of how good your ear is, but you will not say it is “unpleasant” or “it sounds like crap” anymore… Then you have Diva, U-he as a whole, genius, then you have Arturia (even if you don't like it much, you can do amazing things with it), then you have tones of amazing plugins achievements from Plugin Alliance and so forth...

I think we all tend to get attached to what we have done in the past, to what we have paid for, to what we have learned through much effort for many years, all of it is very understandable and even natural, but we cannot deny that we are going (while we destroy each other all around the world as a paradox), to a higher standard of audio quality, in every instrument and sense of audio production, every single year, and the year 2017 has been no exception to this rule.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by garyb »

with all due respect, if it takes a bunch of plugins to sound good, what needs work is the source material, not the computer.
you should sound better and better through your improved skills, not the technology.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by kensuguro »

oh yeah, that thing called skill. I read about it once on Google.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by garyb »

skill is a waste of time. see, they have these things called computers that do it all for you, compose, write, mix, master.
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Nestor
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by Nestor »

I’m surprised you got me so wrong and far away from what I was saying, we should talk each other more often perhaps :) You know I’m a fusion-jazz musician in the first place, then I am a composer and arranger, this is the way I earn my life. I am predictably in favor of musical skills, all the way! My writing had nothing to do with “mechanical” automatic ways of doing music. I thought that you would know by now that I actually deeply dislike techno-like compositions and all these kind of crappy music, exactly because of that, because they are machine-like-productions, remember? We had tens of discussions over the years on this topic, with one of our members called Spirit, that had not visited this forum for years.

I was not suggesting (at all), using compositions machines and/or software to compose and arrange. I play bass as my first instrument, then guitar, then I play keyboard, and through the keyboard I input everything I DON’T HAVE at hand, instruments I cannot afford to buy or even dream of having around in my studio because of lack of space (4.5m X 3.2m in the main room), do you follow me? These are: drums, hundreds of synths, full orchestras with all kind of articulations, acoustic exotic instruments like sitars and tablas, marimbas, war-drums, accordions, you name it... I can have a very realistic B3, a fantastic 12 string acoustic guitar, banjos, electronic drums, choirs, high quality orchestral hits, and literally…, thousands of instruments that I have been gathering through the years, which are very well sampled by the way, at my reach, and without expending millions! (I will never have)

What I meant is that I use VST plugins to PLAY, MIX and MASTER my music and the music I do for professional purposes, and I can produce better and better results every year thanks to the improvements in technology, and been so, you cannot deny the improvements in the VST world, what is wrong with that?

Every year there are better emulations of almost everything! The Diva, for instance, it is about the best emulation so far achieved of several great historical synths, well, now that we have it, we can make better sounding music with better end results, this is factual and there is nothing wrong with it. 10 years ago, no one would have even dreamed of having a bass amp like the Overloud Mark 2, well…, now we have it, and we can sound MUCH better playing exactly the same lines we used to play in the bass, 10 years ago, independently of your skills. This is what I meant. And what about U-He Zebra? What a wonderful achievement as well! We have it now, we didn’t have it a few years ago, and all these instruments are getting better and better every year.

In the other hand, you have the mix and master plugins too, amazing stuff for people like me, without the needed money for high-end hardware, and without either the needed space to accommodate it all. Even with the money, where to put properly all these racks of pro audio hardware that need air, space and much care too. What I have, is not hardware, they are software emulations, and nevertheless, they get closer and closer every year to the so much looked after historical mixers, Reverbs, EQs, Compressors, etc., and their prized sound quality. All of this is for me a joy, why wouldn’t it be this way? I sound better today than yesterday, obviously :D :wink:
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by next to nothing »

I kind of agree with you, Nestor. "we" tend to discuss the quality of VST instruments and effects on the same basis as we did in the former millennium, ignoring the last 17 years of development. I haven't purchased a huge library of commercial plugins, i have a few from waves which i got at discounted prices, I got REaktor 6, i have a few that i have got for free during various campaigns, and i have a shitload of freeware ones. For my use, combined with my Scope plugs, i don't have the need for anything else.

In particular, i will mention Soundtoys. I have got three plugs for free from them, Tremolator 5, Sie-q 5 and now also the Little Plate. The latter is still free, and can be obtained from http://www.soundtoys.com/product/little-plate/ . I find the quality of these plugs illustrate the current quality pretty well, and combined with freeware synths such as Dexed and PG8-X, and the ever growing Reaktor library I am good.

Of course the source needs to be good. But nowadays, we have come so far that you can obtain a very good source from free VST's, good enough that very few (if any) people will notice any difference in a (good) mix. Skill is still needed of course, but i cant see how expanding your palette with good plugins can be a negative thing, especially when sound quality has come so far.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by Nestor »

Thank you Next. Yes, I understand you are suggesting the needed difference to clear out the bottom line of my point. I think we have to distinguish between “musical skills” and “the means to make music”. Skills have been, are, and will remain for eternity, the most important thing, and they will always be as they are: HUMAN NATURE, that is why there are better musicians than others. Contained in “musical skills”, nevertheless, I would put, not only the proficiency at playing one or several instruments, but the expression, interpretation, musicality and so forth, of the soul expressing feelings.

Instruments and sound manipulation, in the other hand, are better than ever before in history, that is the whole point, and it is undeniable that we are reaching, in the “virtual world” specifically, a level of quasi perfection.

Dave Pensado is one of the greatest sound engineers out there in present days. Can you believe that he uses plugins to master his greatest hits? It is not the only thing he uses, of course, but he uses many plugins. I think that this shows you how real is my point. Then you also have Tony Maserati, Andrew Scheps, Chris Lord-Alge, Yaycen Joshua, Sylvia Massy, and many others too… Everyone uses some virtual plugins in their work, along with hardware. We are no longer in the same age.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by Nestor »

That's interesting, I just fond Dave Pensado's own words on this:

“In terms of the classic use of the phrase hybrid studio, as in my approach to in-the-box versus outboard processing, I have a few piece of outboard gear that I like. But I find myself using those less and less as the quality of the digital space improves.”
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by garyb »

compared to real gear, the computer sucks. PERIOD.

computers are totally worth using, though. computers are cheaper than real stuff and they're WAY more convenient. as for editing, computers win, hands down.

soooo....
computers and vsts can be very helpful, but people's work does not sound better because of them. in fact, stuff recorded 40 and 50 years ago will prove that point. i'm not raining on anyone's parade, I USE COMPUTERS FOR AUDIO ALL THE TIME, AND I CHOOSE SCOPE AND VST PLUGINS OVER HARDWARE ALL THE TIME. it's not for audio quality, though.

i'd be crazy to think that it's a plugin that is the difference between good and great productions. if it came down to a plugin, then it would be my lack of funds, time, or skill that was the real thing that held me back, not the lack of a plugin.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by Marco »

A PC's best performance came at first as a wordprozessor when it was a baby. Today the PCs are forced to do a lot of rape (blow) jobs for their horny owners, I'm talking about VST Plugins and scopes hardware to be a good Mother where the DSPs can rest and do great jobs. A PC is like a gum, a poor slave but flexible and reliable :D

Yes I love Hardware, and the most important is the owners brain, does it squeeze out anything useful or not, it's up to you! The whole technology is worthless without the human's brains!
Last edited by Marco on Fri Nov 10, 2017 7:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
:wink: out and about for music production. Are you still configguring your Studio :lol: music first!
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by garyb »

and that's the important point.

i agree there are many fine products available that are totally worth using. but the work that you have put into sounding good is much more powerful than any particular product(Nestor). jmo.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by dawman »

My soft synths like Zebra2 HZ and Omnisphere were suppose to replace Solaris in my rapid deployment rig. They didn’t have the same sonic presence.
The SE-02s did do better for Bass/Lead monophonic work, but wanted something for pads to equal Solaris.
Bought the 7 x 7 inch Waldorf Streichfett for String Synths and Pads.
So Solaris a can retire to home use, or special gigs.

Right now these little hardware synths with 64 loaded sample instruments turn my Physis K4 into a giant ROMpler with hardware FX, hardware synths, samples and XITE-1 for mixing.

Vegas guys have 2 triple tier rigs, take up tons of room.
I roll in my entire rig and 3.1 Stage monitors on my hand truck, set up in 6 minutes, and every FOH asks what are you using? The sound is so much better than these massive rigs that need tons of DIs and Channels @ FOH.

My experience is Native plugs sound fine on NF monitors and headphones.
But they just fizz out on Arrays, so I ended my 4 year affair with soft synths.

The Waldorf Streichfett is really an impressive sounding alternative for Pads and especially String machines.
Cost less than Omnisphere. 300 bucks.
1300 bucks to replace 1200 in softsynths, with higher quality hardware.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by Nestor »

If you make a balance between some important factors like: weight, connectivity, ease of use, convenience, transportation, speed, maintenance, versatility, the possibility to combine several instruments multilayers timbers and FXs in a single massive track, SPACE, amount of FX that you can use in a given moment in as many as 60 or 80 tracks, then THE MONEY spent to have it all… Well… then you realize the virtual world has A LOT to offer. It is not only “the sound”, there are so many things to consider here. I don’t want to build a religion out of “the virtual”. I understand, accept and know that hardware can sound better, overall, in certain traditional approaches, but it is also true that in many others, honestly, I just cannot agree hardware is “better”, because the distance is negligible or none existent. It even happens that in some particular cases the virtual world allows for amazing innovative things that you cannot do with outboard gear in practical realistic way, and if you actually could, your inspiration would need to last a few hours in the first place, to get ready to “try” something out, and then decide… so, sometimes it is impractical for some particular compositional occasions.

The fact of being able to load everything into a couple of projects it is for me awfully convenient! I sit down, switch on one single bottom to power everything at the same time, and that’s it. One single bottom where I have: the computer with two 24” high quality screens, active speakers, preamp, guitar amp, Samson MXP124FX mixer, my MIDI keyboard at my left, and pedals. There you are! Everything is ready in a single go for me to use it all in no time. That is priceless.

Then I load one of my readymade presets in Scope, depending on the project, then another one in Studio One with everything already well thought in it for a particular style of music, or songs or jingles, etc., I don’t need to connect anything, I don’t need many cables, I don’t need to move around searching anything. Now I can start working and my day will definitely render me well with just a few hours of work. Unfortunately, and this is a bad thing we all know as composers, people want you to rush things out! They want everything yesterday! You have to adapt, or you don’t get the job.

Then, you have yet another important factor to take into consideration. Where do people listen at music today and with what kind of players? In most cases, people listen at music through their phones, with middle quality headphones. Your efforts to achieve much detail in your final mix, are not heard but by a few people. We are in a different age. It is true, the digital-virtual world is sounding better and better, and is taking the place, even if it can sound worst.... but common, not that much anyway...
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by garyb »

yes, that's exactly what i said in the first place.
new plugins don't make you sound better necessarily and generally, software is inferior to hardware, but considerations like price and convenience make software desirable and useful, and the audio difference is often not the most important thing.

add to that laziness and the lack of desire and money to solder up good patch bays, the thing that makes hardware actually convenient and useful, and it's easy to understand why i use computers. well, actually, i've done both, but not so much soldering since i got my first computer system with a Pulsar card some 18 years ago...boy that 2 inch tape machine sounded good...well, so does my computer...

actually, there is very little to nothing that a computer does BETTER than traditional solutions except editing and sample manipulation. there are plenty of things that a computer does just about as well as traditional studio equipment does, however, and at a small fraction of the price.

of course, vsts are great to use! the ones that are BETTER than Scope plugins are generally sample-based, and almost all the BETTER plugins are huge eaters of computer resources. in the long run, however, whatever you use should be what gets you results, because the results are all that matters. if you tell me that these new plugins are what is making your work sound great compared to before, then i assume automatically that you didn't have the tools you needed before. that's because you didn't have them, but not because they suddenly became available, that's bullshit. audio processes haven't changed in 50 or more years. computer products have improved, obviously.

none of this means much, i'm just spouting off....but...80 tracks and you're not an orchestra or doing a major motion picture soundtrack, you might be wanking instead of making music. if it takes that many tracks and fx, to make a sandwich of many sounds to make one good sound, then your sound sources are shit. good recordings of real stuff don't take so much manipulation to sound powerful, huge and nice. in fact, again in the long run, the simple method sounds better, has more impact and is easier to mix. it's cheaper in the end, too, even though it's MUCH more expensive and involves more work in the short term.

i'll say it again(and hopefully, i'll be able to shut up after), i think all the products available are GREAT, and i'd use many of them(don't need no pussy-ass super expensive bogus Waves stuff, but that's me), and in fact DO use many of them. i am not against computers in any way(since i use them and make money from them), but sometimes i just feel like destroying hype. there is a whole generation that has never used the real thing, but thinks that their plugins sound EXACTLY like that real thing. they think that their VSTis are the same as the real instruments. they don't know what a compressor is, but they use a bunch in their insert slots, the more the merrier, because they don't know how to use the tools. then they have opinions as though they know something. they expect presets to be the answer to every dilemma. i've watched this destroy the recording industry and the supply houses that fed that industry for cookie-cutter results that are mediocre by anyone's definition. so as an old guy, i'm just annoying the children. sorry if anyone else has to deal with the flames, there's no personal animosity involved.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by braincell »

garyb wrote:anything for home use is just something that is branded with a famous brand.
it doesn't make the thing useless crap, but it does mean that it's not going to be the same as the real thing, nor will it be close.

The question should be, is it good enough? Home recording keeps getting better while studio recording isn't advancing as quickly. There is now software which does things hardware just can't do.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by Nestor »

Hehe, don’t worry Gary, that’s cool. In the first place, all my words can be reduced to a very simple phrase: “I am very, very happy of having the possibility of making music at home thanks to Scope and the VST world!” I can do anything I want, and that makes me feel so happy!

Of course, the virtual world does suits me because I actually am unaware of so many high end things. I am not an engineer myself so I guess I can be convinced faster than guys like you that have worked and listened at those high end pieces of hardware for many years. I’m just so satisfied, even delighted by what I have and can do, that I am grateful enough to forget about anything else. Anyway, I have been in quite a few studios, pretty good ones sometimes in countries all around the world, and I can guarantee you that, if you know how to properly build a song with the right amount of everything on it, you can achieve pretty similar results in the virtual world than those achieved in the hardware world. Probably, not always me, even if sometimes I think I rather do for small productions, but I have witnessed it from other fellows and their small studios, and it is undeniable that it is true.

When you say: if you tell me that these new plugins are what is making your work sound great compared to before, then i assume automatically that you didn't have the tools you needed before. that's because you didn't have them.

Yes, you are right. I didn’t have them all, and also I have new ones now that are years light better than they used to be. One of the reasons for this bettering is that I had already quite a few great Kontakt libraries that I could not load because of lack of power and RAM, but now I can! I am amazed at the quality and detail they have achieved.

Don’t understand me literally when I give you an example. I don’t compose with 80 tracks, nor even 60. What I mean is that, if I need it, in can go that far, which shows how powerful the virtual scenario can be for a composer.
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by garyb »

:)

yes, it's great.

:)
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Re: Waves SSL E Channel Sore D Deal

Post by Nestor »

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