There it comes, the huge visitor I was waiting for

[Nestor]

there is no doubt that those who own banks, large portions of land, and manufacturing work together. why wouldn't they?

Sure ! That's the point ! It has ALWAYS been like that since history and I bet even since prehistory ! People who has got power, money, private property, slaves, ascendancy on brains via superstition have always impose there way of life to plebeians. So why talking about conspiracy more today than before ? One must avoid wrong target. It is like that since ages.
But one must admit there is progress : before, it was kings that had power, to born as prince and you had the power all your life after your father died, to born poor and you had it in the ass. Now, the one who has the power must try to show, even if he lies, he is the better man in the situation. Before, the lord of the town could borrow your wife for a night and if you protested, he cut your head and god was with him. Amen.
I'm not sure it's worst now.

What? No no no... This is as far of reality as it gets... We have had amazing civilizations in ancient times where mankind lived in peace, but you will not find it in any Atlas book or from your university teacher..., you must go to these ancient civilizations and know their history by yourself, like from the ancient Mayas, Incas, the ancient Egyptians, etc. All you know in school and university, is what you have been told by the interests of those who have written the books. The history of this world is completely different from what it has been written. No wonder we think in such a different way...

[JoPo]

What? No no no... This is as far of reality as it gets... We have had amazing civilizations in ancient times where mankind lived in peace, but you will not find it in any Atlas book or from your university teacher..., you must go to these ancient civilizations and know their history by yourself, like from the ancient Mayas, Incas, the ancient Egyptians, etc. All you know in school and university, is what you have been told by the interests of those who have written the books. The history of this world is completely different from what it has been written. No wonder we think in such a different way...

Really ?? Incredible ! But how did learn about these ancient civilizations and know their history by yourself ? Did you go in all ancient egyptian, Mayas, Incas site and made archaeological excavations ? Did romans, european kingdoms were non violent civilisations ? How can one learn by himself all ancient civilisations real history ? Why every single scientists who studies those civilisation say what it's written in books ?
As you see, what you are saying leads to a lot of questions ! I'm impatient to have responses.

[Nestor]

What? No no no... This is as far of reality as it gets... We have had amazing civilizations in ancient times where mankind lived in peace, but you will not find it in any Atlas book or from your university teacher..., you must go to these ancient civilizations and know their history by yourself, like from the ancient Mayas, Incas, the ancient Egyptians, etc. All you know in school and university, is what you have been told by the interests of those who have written the books. The history of this world is completely different from what it has been written. No wonder we think in such a different way...

Really ?? Incredible ! But how did learn about these ancient civilizations and know their history by yourself ? Did you go in all ancient egyptian, Mayas, Incas site and made archaeological excavations ? Did romans, european kingdoms were non violent civilisations ? How can one learn by himself all ancient civilisations real history ? Why every single scientists who studies those civilisation say what it's written in books ?
As you see, what you are saying leads to a lot of questions ! I'm impatient to have responses.

You base yourself in the established and I base myself in what is not established in most cases, they are sources more difficult to get, sure, because they are not popular and demand of you an extra effort, they are not easily available for you, you have to search for them. We have nurtured our understanding from different sources, and as we both can see, sometimes contradictory or even conflicting sources, but this is not a problem, right? We are just analyzing, I am not fighting with you, understand me well.

My first surprise about history was raised when I started to learn other languages, this lead me to read history books from opposite countries, from enemies to be more specific, and what I found is that they both would write completely different stories, and then, following the money, the influences, the strategy, interests, etc., I ended up understanding why, but I found I was not the only one to come to similar conclusions and through similar strategies, there are many others who are in the same path I am, today more than ever in history.

As a simple example, for instance, we all have learned and admire Thomas Edison because we have ben thought in the school about him and his life, like a dogma to be accepted. I used to think he was one of the most wonderful persons in this life. Well, this man was far from being a good man, he was a covetous deceiver, a bad boss and a bad friend. The real genius behind several of his inventions, and particularly the most famous of them all, the light bulb, is Nicola Tesla, by the way, a much better human being than Thomas. Then you are told that Columbus was the first one coming to America, but this is false information, the Chinese were the first and there are proofs of it. Then you are told that ancient civilizations were all formed by barbarian people, but if you are around here in South America you will be able to learn about, for instance, the Incas, first hand. The Incas achieved one of the most stable civilizations ever created, their government and the way the ruled at the beginning and for hundreds of years was almost perfect, they had no criminals, very little health problems, food and goods for everybody, no wars, no conflicts, no injustice. Then you have the Toltec, from which we know almost nothing in school-like-teachings, they will concentrated only in the last period. But Toltec are MUCH, VERY MUCH OLDER than science have said they are, they have been in earth for hundreds of thousands of years. Then you have carbon 14 as a superb methodology to test ancient objects and tell about their exact date in history, well, guess what, carbon 14 dating method is totally imprecise. If you don’t believe it, let have a talk with some of the guys behind it. Then you are told about the Egyptians they were brutal people, and they were in their last dynasties, but not before that. Historians will tell you they were barbarians, but paradoxically, they still have not been able to explain about the construction of pyramids, or why there is not even one single simple tool ever found in the whole of history by archeologists in that land. How did they built their pyramids? Nobody has ever answered beyond ridicule speculations out of reach with reality about this. Reality is well beyond imagination!

Don’t you see that in our society we tend to rise up to the level of “extremely intelligent” those who are only “intellectual” people? We have given to intellect to much priority, to the extent to misunderstand its meaning. To be intellectual has nothing to do with being intelligent. The proof of this, is that there are plenty of prodigious intellectual people doing terrible things out there, like the idiots that creates weapons, or those that like humiliate those less capable than them, they like to shine in front of others and show up. This is not intelligence, this is only mechanical knowledge and self-centeredness, egotism, vanity, arrogance. Intelligence must be related to consciousness, understanding, inner development, and so, to the meaning of things and the value of life and alive beings, there is wisdom and a deep sense of respect behind real intelligence, and of course, there are very intelligent people that can be analphabets.

If there is not respect, there is no intelligence, only arrogance of having many books in a horrid mind.

We have been formed in a way that we only accept what is established, if it is said in the TV, you go and accept it. If it is said in the street by a dirty worker, you don’t believe it. The difference it is in an impression that dominates you, emotionally and mentally, and even if you like or dislike it, hundreds of paradigms have been deposited in your unconscious mind, and you react through them without even noticing you are actually, preconditioned. If you cannot distinguish reality because it comes through a wrong mean or a non-expected mean, or a dirty cloth man, or an old man who does not well speak, your mind has been dogmatized, and you work through superficial impressions, but not the inner content behind the impressions.

Yes, I have been in touch with ancient civilizations all my life, this is one of my deepest passions, and this is what has given me the most fulfilment in my life. I have been in touch with some descendants of ancient civilizations and they can explain you many amazing things that are NOT in the books, and least of all, in the interest of the writers of these books...

Those prolific intellectual writers, nevertheless, would be incapable to even sit down and listen to these people, because they are full of delusional grandeur and they consider these people simple indigenes inferior to them, they are sometimes racists or would show disgust to the offered food, etc., honestly, people that do not know how to live. Of course, there are always exceptions, but they are not the rule. How many times has happened that when a worker becomes a boss he turns unbearable with his fellow workers, because he is now on top? Many! Well, there is no different with many of these intellectuals, they are people with lots of data into their minds, nothing else, but empty in their hearts. I have seen it with my own eyes the whole of my life, the whole of my life…

Do you want to study some real history and open your mind to a much realistic perspective of our world? Go to Mario Roso de Luna, Rudolf Steiner, Edgar Cayce, and open your mind to a completely new perspective, the one that will objectivize your vision.

Once in my school, having about 14 to 15 years old, my teacher came to challenge me because he realized I was not doing what he said we had to do. He said to me: “What do you think you are doing?” I answered. “I am studying the fourth dimension, so what!” He, THE TEACHER, told me so: “don’t lose your time, the fourth dimension does not exist”. His answer really, really pissed me off to the sky, and I said to him: “Ok, you keep doing your stuff, and let me study the fourth dimension”. I did not stop doing what I wanted to do, he was teaching us some stupid false historic facts written by some politically bias people, I had not whatsoever interest in being indoctrinated by that rubbish! Of course, this was not a happy moment for any both of us. Jopo, which is the reality today? That the fourth dimension have been widely proven as been the TIME dimension. SO WHAT??? Well…, it is a very easy conclusion, he was supposed to be the one who would “teach” me what reality was, but he did not! Well, reproduce it exponentially, this is exactly what I have experienced all the time in my life, so I am the teacher who teaches myself. I don’t accept something just like that, because it comes from a tuxedo man, or because it is in the TV, or because the marketing behind it is great, or because the guy speaking to me is a fine intellectual, nothing is enough. I do not buy what the world sells me, I open constantly my own way, and it is very much difficult, but rewarding and infinitely more real. The rest, it is your own job brother

[JoPo]

I'm not fighting with you either, I just try to understand. And I agree with you when you say one learns much more than a new laguage, one learns new ways of reading, understanding reality. I speak french mainly but also english (certainly not as good as you) and italian. And I've learned for 9 years german at school and only 2 english, but I don't speak german. I learned english & italian by travelling. And yes, that teached me much more than another language.

Nicola Tesla (who is one of my favorit scientist) is still very well appreciate in mainstream science ! He won the AC/DC war against Edison, from very far : you don't find any AC for power supply except in batteries or solar panels. Tesla is now the name of magnetic flow density unity. That is one of the biggest tribute scientist community can do to a genius. Edison is the name of only Thomas !

Sure there was chinese before Colombus, and one found an ancient Viking place in north America and even Solutrean people went in America between 16 500 & 13 000 years ago ! That is absolutely not a secret ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlemen ... e_Americas And one always forget the first ones to arrive there : native americans !

In France, school books explain that Incas civikisation was amazing : very stable, no conflict, the state was feeding old people after 50 years old, children, handicapped persons ; workers men & women had to work for state several weeks a year in exchange the land the state gave them (but still belong to Inca state and returns after they die) for cultivating what they eated, il was very close to a theorical communist regime. There is no secret. I don't know what school books say about Incas in other countries but I never heard there was something else.
But don't forget that Incas, as good civilisation as it was, made human sacrifices ! Especially children for the enthronement of a new emperor. But it's like Azteks, antic civilisations, and much others !...

Often, one hear science doesn't explain pyramid, Stonehenge, Easter island statues, and much more, construction. But people who claim that don't want to see, they prefer to ignore them, all archeological experiments that show very very clearly how they did, with tools of ancient time. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9o ... gyptiennes or in english : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_ ... techniques
For sure, there is no proof : nobody of nowadays has seen it directly. But Scientists show it's absolutely possible with ancient tools & technics and they found several possibilities. No need of extraterrestrial or any unhuman power.
Ancient or more recent egyptians liked a lot war and conquest, there is no doubt about that, otherwise, they would not have been that huge civilisation ! They would have stay in there small town ! They conquered a lot of other towns to become as big as they were.

I agree with you when you say "there are very intelligent people that can be analphabets" and also what our society call 'intelligence' : in France, at the moment and since 10 years, all scientist high school are empty when business school are over full. That is more than sad. And I'm still wondering if you think that very rich american bunker owners are more intelligent than liar mainstream scientists, you have not been very clear about that, I'd like to know.

And one again, when you say my mind has been dogmatized, I can say exactly the same with yours and all people claiming the reality is hidden by extremly high powers, I already writted a lot about dogmas, I believe.
But what I'd like you to tell me is : how did you undogmatized your brain ?

You're right : when europeans went in America, Africa, Asia centuries ago, they thought they was superior, they thought wild people has no soul...etc... But there was also european that noticed wild people wisdom and created the "good wild people" myth. But we are all humans and we all have the same failings and brain, racists believe the opposit. And nowadays, antropologists are totaly different than conquistadors. They listen, record, study what other civilisation people say very very carefully.

I don't find any info about Mario Roso de Luna except he was a scientist and discovered theosophy and made esoteric books. Apparently, he didn't hurt anybody.
But, for Rudolf Steiner... That guy is different ! He developed antroposophic theory, it seems very close to theosophy. Let me show you who is that guy...
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/11 ... hools.html
You spoke about children suffering and you can go there : http://waldorfwatch.com/
I believe you speak french, a good witness : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxwwlUULG_M
I often read the 'sectarian' word about Steiner Waldorf schools, you'd better take care. The french witness explain how he has been endoctrinated for 30 years ! Since he went at a Steiner school and then became teacher before to realise Steiner was just trying to make a new religion and how they manipulated students.
And for Edgar Cayce, frankly, no comment... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce

The Atlantid myth is funny : Platon spoke about it only 2 short times and it became the myth we know today, mainly in 19th century. There certainly should have been a lack. Steiner Waldorf schools are specialists about mixing myths and historical facts.

Yes ! Fourth dimension is time. It is simply the best way to discribe our universe : when you speak about any object, you can say the place you find it = 3 dimensions and if it's moving (like everything, indeed) where it was/is/has been at which hour. That's simply it. When you have a rendez-vous, you must say where AND when to be sure to see the other person, that is the mystical fourth dimension : WHEN, and that's it ! That was already very well known when you was at school.

I agree with you to not accept any information without any critical mind. And it's very important to check what is true or not. But that doesn't mean one must believe systematically what some esoteric and charismatic people say, alone or with 2 or 3 followers, against all other scientist community. And if don't believe that, just have a look all around yourself : nowadays, our every day life uses what scientist community discovered for everything : traveling, communicating, going in space, under the see, flying, computing, having an entiere music studio at home, eating, etc, etc... And I'm not sure antroposophy or any esoteric "science" had any single result except manipulating its brain followers.

[garyb]

theosophists are Hitler's favorites!
on with the Aryan fifth root race!

Steiner is not a good man. jmho.

[JoPo]

Steiner is not a good man. jmho.

That's the least you can say...

[garyb]

[Nestor]

Upsss, this is really out of topic, and not related at all with Planet X... But hey, this is so open wide that every other topic comes into consideration.

Ok, I will answer the last one for you Jope, but as you can see, this is endless.

[JoPo]

We've got time for talking ! Take your time to answer ! All I wish is understanding.

[Nestor]

I'm not fighting with you either, I just try to understand. And I agree with you when you say one learns much more than a new laguage, one learns new ways of reading, understanding reality. I speak french mainly but also english (certainly not as good as you) and italian. And I've learned for 9 years german at school and only 2 english, but I don't speak german. I learned english & italian by travelling. And yes, that teached me much more than another language.

Yes, to know several languages does help, definitely, but that doens't make you more intelligent either.

Nicola Tesla (who is one of my favorit scientist) is still very well appreciate in mainstream science ! He won the AC/DC war against Edison, from very far : you don't find any AC for power supply except in batteries or solar panels. Tesla is now the name of magnetic flow density unity. That is one of the biggest tribute scientist community can do to a genius. Edison is the name of only Thomas !

Go through history, and you will see that he is appreciated “today”, but nobody new about him much in the past, until friends and public justice brought him there. Nevertheless, you will still find that the basics tell you exactly the same, that is: Thomas Edison is the “great inventor”.

Sure there was chinese before Colombus, and one found an ancient Viking place in north America and even Solutrean people went in America between 16 500 & 13 000 years ago ! That is absolutely not a secret ! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Settlemen ... e_Americas And one always forget the first ones to arrive there : native americans !

And millions of others things too. But have been they the basis of reality for the last 500 years? Of course not, lies up onto lies is what you will find in the so called written “history”. Some of it, because of the interest of the writers, some because of ignorance, and many, part of the fantasy of the writer. History is not some bit, but extremely different from what it is reflected in history books.

In France, school books explain that Incas civikisation was amazing : very stable, no conflict, the state was feeding old people after 50 years old, children, handicapped persons ; workers men & women had to work for state several weeks a year in exchange the land the state gave them (but still belong to Inca state and returns after they die) for cultivating what they eated, il was very close to a theorical communist regime. There is no secret. I don't know what school books say about Incas in other countries but I never heard there was something else.
But don't forget that Incas, as good civilisation as it was, made human sacrifices ! Especially children for the enthronement of a new emperor. But it's like Azteks, antic civilisations, and much others !...

Your answers about history come from “just around the corner”, mankind is much older that suspected, in fact, many million years older.

Often, one hear science doesn't explain pyramid, Stonehenge, Easter island statues, and much more, construction. But people who claim that don't want to see, they prefer to ignore them, all archeological experiments that show very very clearly how they did, with tools of ancient time. https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Th%C3%A9o ... gyptiennes or in english : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_ ... techniques
For sure, there is no proof : nobody of nowadays has seen it directly. But Scientists show it's absolutely possible with ancient tools & technics and they found several possibilities. No need of extraterrestrial or any unhuman power.
Ancient or more recent egyptians liked a lot war and conquest, there is no doubt about that, otherwise, they would not have been that huge civilisation ! They would have stay in there small town ! They conquered a lot of other towns to become as big as they were.

Man, you’ve got into Wikipedia to point me (probably from your first five minutes about this topic in your life), what happened in Ancient Egypt. First, you point me out what happened in Egypt, based in a link you have taken from somewhere, but it is something you are not related with. I have been for more than 30 years studding thins kind of things, so I really know what I’m talking about and I tell you with certainty: there is no whatsoever evidence that shows how the Pyramids have been done. All you can get are theories that do not relate with reality, theories that nobody have proven to be real, and building actually a pyramid. Everything they have done in experiments based on these many, many theories, have failed when trying to actually build a pyramid. Then, think that what you are doing is giving me the perfect argument against your claim, because what you automatically do, is to go and take a link “from” the established ignorance on this world. Certainly, not enough.

I agree with you when you say "there are very intelligent people that can be analphabets" and also what our society call 'intelligence' : in France, at the moment and since 10 years, all scientist high school are empty when business school are over full. That is more than sad. And I'm still wondering if you think that very rich american bunker owners are more intelligent than liar mainstream scientists, you have not been very clear about that, I'd like to know.

I’m referring to the wolf of evil intelligence, those you have achieved the structure of this horrible society we called falsely just and free, I’m talking about the NWO criminals. I’m talking about the deceivers and their lies. This is not “intelligence” in a superior or positive way, this is “advantage”. I’m talking about all those who have the “benefit and the information”. I'm talking about those who have got you!

And one again, when you say my mind has been dogmatized, I can say exactly the same with yours and all people claiming the reality is hidden by extremly high powers, I already writted a lot about dogmas, I believe.
But what I'd like you to tell me is : how did you undogmatized your brain ?

Sure, sure…, you can read it in Wikipedia! So it must be true! Just kidding...

Do you want to get out of dogmatism? No problem, there is a solution: MEDITATION!!! But this will most probably make you laugh too…

You're right : when europeans went in America, Africa, Asia centuries ago, they thought they was superior, they thought wild people has no soul...etc... But there was also european that noticed wild people wisdom and created the "good wild people" myth. But we are all humans and we all have the same failings and brain, racists believe the opposit. And nowadays, antropologists are totaly different than conquistadors. They listen, record, study what other civilisation people say very very carefully.

No, people did not change that much, most people keep still in the same train of behavior, very pround of their titles and status, and position... It seems that you don’t know many anthropologists personally, well I do. I told you already, I have moved myself into this scenario the whole of my life. I still remember one of the most disgusting scenarios I have to witness from those considered extremely intelligent people: She was an anthropologist and a biologist friend of mine. She has already died, it was pretty old, it was one of the eminencies in biology in the whole world. Then there was another great professor, he was a doctor, and also a biologist. She was one of the most knowledgeable persons I have ever known, but very short in understanding nevertheless, she had problems with many people, including her daughter... One day, I found out they both had a terrible discussion because he wanted to sing the paper they both had written, in the first place, and then she wanted also to sing the paper in the first place, because it was a very important paper to be released worldwide in all mayor biology specialized magazines, they would behave like suborned children. So much knowledge to be so stupid? This is only one of the many things I have seen by myself, so I don’t think that the “theories” you are telling me will account as more important than my “experiences”. I can and like learning, very, very much, but teach me something real..., not what you believe, linked to a Wikipedia text.

I don't find any info about Mario Roso de Luna except he was a scientist and discovered theosophy and made esoteric books. Apparently, he didn't hurt anybody.
But, for Rudolf Steiner... That guy is different ! He developed antroposophic theory, it seems very close to theosophy. Let me show you who is that guy...
http://www.quackometer.net/blog/2012/11 ... hools.html
You spoke about children suffering and you can go there : http://waldorfwatch.com/
I believe you speak french, a good witness : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxwwlUULG_M
I often read the 'sectarian' word about Steiner Waldorf schools, you'd better take care. The french witness explain how he has been endoctrinated for 30 years ! Since he went at a Steiner school and then became teacher before to realise Steiner was just trying to make a new religion and how they manipulated students.
And for Edgar Cayce, frankly, no comment... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Cayce

Rudolf Steiner was not understood and his work was used by terrible interests, but he was not related to them and it was a good man by himself, just like Albert Einstein had never actually been related to the atomic bomb itself, you can say he is a bad man, well, he was not. The Waldorf Schools have nothing to do with what I have said, these schools are not related to the first ideas Steiner had. Why do you bring this schools anyway? What is interesting to understand and know, is that he studied ancient civilizations, that’s what I want to rescue from him, and his knowledge of ancient civilizations was great!

The Atlantid myth is funny : Platon spoke about it only 2 short times and it became the myth we know today, mainly in 19th century. There certainly should have been a lack. Steiner Waldorf schools are specialists about mixing myths and historical facts.

Atlantis is absolutely real. I have studied it for many years, and I can say it is as real as our grandmothers are! Yes, I know what you are doing to do now, most probably, pointing me to a link that states it does not exist. This is a poor answer already... This conversation could be endless, you will say this, and I will say that, then we are going to start all over again. I am not interested in convincing skeptics. My teacher told me the fourth dimension did not exists, but it does! You will say Atlantis does not exists, well, Jacques Cousteau, myself and thousand of others investigations will tell you it actually does, and that there are MANY proofs of it.

Yes ! Fourth dimension is time. It is simply the best way to discribe our universe : when you speak about any object, you can say the place you find it = 3 dimensions and if it's moving (like everything, indeed) where it was/is/has been at which hour. That's simply it. When you have a rendez-vous, you must say where AND when to be sure to see the other person, that is the mystical fourth dimension : WHEN, and that's it ! That was already very well known when you was at school.

No! Fourth Dimension was not accepted (and is still not accepted), in MANY school texts around the entire globe, so inform yourself a little better before stating something as important as that. The point is that, the establishment and its legislators have been telling you what you should or should not study, learn and know, and what you have been studying, learning and getting to know, is not always true, it is bias, politicized and full of all kind of interests, and most of all, it is there to render service to the multinationals that govern economically the world.

I agree with you to not accept any information without any critical mind. And it's very important to check what is true or not. But that doesn't mean one must believe systematically what some esoteric and charismatic people say, alone or with 2 or 3 followers, against all other scientist community. And if don't believe that, just have a look all around yourself : nowadays, our every day life uses what scientist community discovered for everything : traveling, communicating, going in space, under the see, flying, computing, having an entiere music studio at home, eating, etc, etc... And I'm not sure antroposophy or any esoteric "science" had any single result except manipulating its brain followers.

If you think in such a way, why do you go directly to Wikipedia links to tell me what "you" want to tell me? It makes no sense. Well, it doesn’t matter...

Science? You must start by dividing science into different chunks or buildings or scenarios, it is way too big to just say “science”. You can find the best, and the worst of mankind within science, the best and the worst! I have said it not long ago here in the Z by the way. Science is fantastic, marvelous, when it is there to help mankind, but it is not always the case…

Then you have “scientific theories”, which are a totally different world. Among the scientific theories you can get the most ridicule ideas and crazy speculations ever presented to your mind. Definitely, as ridicule and as crazy as those from Zecharia Sitchin himself, when speaking about lizards. Medieval times have not passed by yet, mentally speaking, we still have theories comparable to the one that stated the world was carried by a gigantic turtle, then you speak about the possibility of Atlantis being real, and people laugh. Wow!

There is constructive, destructive, false, true, evil, beneficial, atheist, religious, to the ground, speculative, kind of science, and so forth and so forth…

This is my last answer to you brother, at least for a little while, because this would take an endless path that leads, unfortunately, to no place. The many and quite different ideas that this thread had brought bring controversy to the mind because it touches too many aspects of what this or that person believes about life, philosophy, religion, the past, people, science, and so forth, so it is useless to "debate" about these things. It is as useless as those lengthy and heavy congress in which believers and atheists engage in extremely complex fights about the possible existence of God, what a ridicule waste of time!

Now, let us have a rest, and when there is new important info, we come back to see what is all about.

I have already said what I wanted to say. You can judge it as you consider it is more convenient for you: believe it, reject it, it is entirely your choice of life, use your freedom. I am using mine

[Nestor]

We've got time for talking ! Take your time to answer ! All I wish is understanding.

No, we have not much time.

No, you do not wish to understand, you want to "win", you have the syndrome, too. If you were sincere, you would speak in a different way.

[JoPo]

You pretend I don't wish to understand ? Are you in my brain ? What do you think I wish, then ? Do you think I'm taking that much time to write so long post just to loose time ? I wish I understand why you believe all those theories, that's all. What do you think is my purpose ? To convince you ?? Do you think I try to win ?? Win what ?

What a condesendant complex to think that for "good meditation" one has to cross him legs painfuly, breath to blow giant baloons and close his eyes !! How can you be so sure it's the only way to make his brain working, concentrating on some ideas ? There are many other ways for "meditation" or simply "think", "concentrate", "use his brain" , meditators don't have the monopoly of thinking.

For sure this discussion is endless, it already started 416 years ago, when Giordano Bruno was burned on the Campo dei Fiori because he began to think like a scientist against supersitions.

[garyb]

no, it may be an older confusion than that.
we can all be pretty defensive. obviously there's no way to prove anything over the internet that isn't internet-based.

i can easily get caught up in an interesting discussion and get out of hand. it's very tempting to feel competitive about posts and identities, but i also have to remember that nobody is speaking the same language even if everyone speaks English. the real subtleties of language, emotion and good or bad will are not really transmitted through the internet even with emoticons.

most people are pretty ok, but there's always a small percentage of people who disregard others. actually, that is a standard learned behavior in this world. many who are truly sociopaths hide behind this behavior of disregarding all whom one is not intimate with. since there are a lot of people, even a small percentage of people who are the kind who naturally disregard others will look like a lot of people who are like that. then it almost looks normal. hazing the idiot or weirdo in school is part of the training process.

anyway, i would hope that we could throw ideas at each other instead of disdain. i mean that for all of us, including myself. personally, i would like to see the data that proves that nothing can possible disturb the Earth, it's orbit, or even hit it. there seems to be an agreement that this is explicitly said bu "science". i've just never seen that data.

Nestor, even if you are Noah himself, you won't gain even one follower by preaching. if you have the truth, say it, or better, show it, and then let the fools do as they wish. as i said earlier, i don't see anything that humans could do about it. i could think about some theoretical occult solutions, but those all have awful side effects.

[JoPo]

i can easily get caught up in an interesting discussion and get out of hand. it's very tempting to feel competitive about posts and identities, but i also have to remember that nobody is speaking the same language even if everyone speaks English. the real subtleties of language, emotion and good or bad will are not really transmitted through the internet even with emoticons.

100% agree ! Forum, chat are misunderstanding source, especially when interlocutors don't know each other in real life. When one communicates with words, face to face, each interlocuteur "reads" also the meaning on the face of the other : is he jocking, serious, sad, etc... Impossible to do the same here ; ok, emoticons help a bit but are far from replacing what look says. And that's why, also, one should be as much as possible accurate in his meaning.

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[Nestor]

You pretend I don't wish to understand ? Are you in my brain ? What do you think I wish, then ? Do you think I'm taking that much time to write so long post just to loose time ? I wish I understand why you believe all those theories, that's all. What do you think is my purpose ? To convince you ?? Do you think I try to win ?? Win what ?

What a condesendant complex to think that for "good meditation" one has to cross him legs painfuly, breath to blow giant baloons and close his eyes !! How can you be so sure it's the only way to make his brain working, concentrating on some ideas ? There are many other ways for "meditation" or simply "think", "concentrate", "use his brain" , meditators don't have the monopoly of thinking.

For sure this discussion is endless, it already started 416 years ago, when Giordano Bruno was burned on the Campo dei Fiori because he began to think like a scientist against supersitions.

To your first paragraph, your own answer is good enough:
http://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=34239

To your second paragraph: your ignorance on the meditation topic is of 100%, period. You don’t have a clue brother... Now I have confirmed clearly that you like to just “speak”, even if you don’t know what you are saying, what you are after is "to win" To what I answer, thank you, but no... thank you! How can I give you “credibility” and “respect” to your writings in this way? I thought you were a little more serious… You have burned yourself here!

[Nestor]

i would hope that we could throw ideas at each other instead of disdain.

That’s the idea, but there is not the needed maturity for that, we have to admit.

[Nestor]

even if you are Noah himself, you won't gain even one follower by preaching. if you have the truth, say it, or better, show it, and then let the fools do as they wish.

Noah... it's a cool name I have to say...

I understand you well, it is true. That is why I don't want to go any farther with questions and answers, they don't help. When speaking becomes endless, there is no meaning to it, I agree with that one.

[JoPo]

Now I have confirmed clearly that you like to just “speak”, even if you don’t know what you are saying, what you are after is "to win" To what I answer, thank you, but no... thank you! How can I give you “credibility” and “respect” to your writings in this way? I thought you were a little more serious… You have burned yourself here!

Nestor, do you really believe I hoped you didn't notice the other thread ? All I told you is why I answer so long post to you : try to understand how you achieved to believe in your theories. I burned myself ? Why do you think I'm trying to hide anything ? I don't hide absolutely nothing and I'm totally frank.
What do you think I'm trying to win ?? I really don't understand this story about winning anything.

I don't think I've been disrespectful with you and you can give me the “credibility” and “respect” you decide. You are certainly a good musician (by the way, where could I listen to your music ?), you must be very hospitable and it's probably pleasant to have a discussion with you around a good meal. But if I have some physic related problems to solve, I'll ask to someone else.
Me, I'm someone who loves music, science and I'm involved in politic, but I can't say I love it, it's just because I can't stand unjustice. Thus, I can be very serious, and I am in this thread. Humor can be a way to say very serious things and is very, hugely powerful. At work, I feel good only if I find some jokes that make everybody laugh 10 times an hour at the minimum legal quota. But believe me, that doesn't prevent me and my students to work very hard all day long, basicaly, it's the opposit, when one works in good mood, no one wants to stop. I can't live without jokes and everybody likes to work with me because they know they are going to have a good funny day. One of my favorit scientis is Richard Feynman because he was a genious to combine humor with most serious and hard science. And when one of my students does some damn-fool things, I always use humor to put him back to his place. And everyone laughs, event the guy I make fun of. It's much more efficient and less tiring than having conflicts all day long (indeed, my students are not all altar boys...! That's the least one can say...!).

About meditation... If the way you meditate makes concluding to believe all your fantastic theories, please, can you, at least, allow me to think that my way of meditating is not so bad.

[Nestor]

Forget about it brother, forget, let’s live in peace

[dante]

I get the impression that in making such a definitive assertion about world ending events, there may be not much point unless there comes with it definitive facts other than to say rich experts in the world say its going to happen.

Some definitive science in the public domain should be able to be referred to.

If the world is going to end and there's experts not telling me about it, theres no point in me knowing about it at all.

Its like a game from childhood where the kid next door used to say 'I know a secret but I'm not going to tell you what it is'.

I finally woke up to saying 'well then why tell me at all.' ?

A secret is either a secret or its not.