Wanted : Your Experiences With Analog Tape

[Bud Weiser]

Yes, that's what people do, if you have a decent tape machine at your proposition

Confirmed,- and they do it in the best studios I know.

Bud

[tlaskows]

I'm not sure about native. But UA has Fatso plugin that does tape saturation emulation... It does change the sound. I'm not sure if I like it or not.

-Tom

[garyb]

So, what if you took a digital recording and sent it out of the computer into a reel to reel tape deck and re-recorded it back into the computer? Would it add that old analog warmth to it?

well, yes and no.

that's actually a waste of time for most people. "warmth" is distortion, just before the point that the distortion is heard as distortion. it's possible to add those harmonics with a bit of overdrive(that's basically what a "warmer" effect is). it still won't be the same as tape. recording digitally and then going to tape and then back again won't sound the same as recording on tape, but it's close. what's more important is that the performance is good and that the recording is done properly.

why go in circles chasing one's tail? just learn how to handle audio and do good recordings in the format that you are using. stop trying to use a magic bullet to make a recording sound good. it's like not taking care of your body and then looking for a pill to fix everything. even if the pill eliminates the symptoms caused by misuse of the body, the side effects may be even more devastating in the long run. the simpler audio path is always the best one, unless you really just want to mangle the signal.

i have actually owned a tape machine or several. i can tell you that my work has not suffered from it's elimination, although the tape machine did sound GREAT.

[yayajohn]

hehehe, well i've got a 1/4" Teac 4 track that's collecting dust. Thought maybe i might find a use for it when you start talking about saturation and distortion. Perhaps it could be used on the way into the computer for that or as an external aux?. When I was using it i was using it for recording and not really thinking about it as an effect.
Of course I'd have to make room for it again and the thing weighs a ton

[garyb]

we're talking about the properties of tape, not the tape machine...

[dante]

IIRC it's possible to have record and pickup transducers on the same head. Add to that an erase head and 60 seconds 1/2 tape loop - put in small box with motor, electronics and USB3 for 192 KHz transfer etc etc and mass produced / released at NAMM you have a real hardware hi quality near zero latency tape 'plugin' to be used in the record or insert signal chains !! Luxury version includes Sharc chip, adjustable azimuth and is Ferrofish branded.

Every studio / muso desperate for 'tape sound' can then run out and buyed one instead of buyed Slate Digital and all the other 'warming plugs' they spend on each year trying to get that sound.

This would be a hardware version of tape plugins that emulate hardware in the first place. Call it 'RealReel' - the hardware tape machine for the future !!

[dawman]

The big place in Vegas actually runs Logic tracks into to SSL4000G+ out into your choice of 3 Tape machines.
They are all on those rolling tripods still too.
What kills me is the Manley rack takes it back to 2 track...?
But these kids pay extra for Tape and the guy is making 1000s a week from underfround hip hop artists.

There were young cats there talking about the video they will make at the pool out back where the guy makes even more money.
Not sure if the gold they wore was real but they definately had Mr. T starter kits.

[tlaskows]

Those 400MHz Sharcs ain't cheap. About 40$ a piece

-Tom

[yayajohn]

thanks Gary. i think I get the picture now.

dante - I think you may have forecast something in the future, that actually sounds like something someone would make and buy. You better go get the copyright on it pronto then you can sue whoever makes a fortune on it.

[dante]

Possibly. But maybe the tape loop could be a weakness. How often did the tape cartridges in the old Melos echo decks need replacing in a pro studio ?

Then there's the idea of converting a Melotron to a multitrack version !

[Bud Weiser]

Call it 'RealReel'

Yesterday nite, I watched a Walter Trout documentary and the studio where his last album was done has exactly that name,- the "REAL REEL STUDIO".

Then in that documentary he introduced his band rehearsal room which was about a bit more size than a closet in his house and there was his "homerecording studio" setup on a big and old bureau furniture thing,- a Tascam 4-track cassette recorder, a toy drummachine and a hifi amp w/ hifi speakers.
I was speechless.

Then he demonstrated how it sounds and there was a drum pattern recorded and some guitar riffs and licks ...
He commented, "now I put some lyrics on that and have a new album" ...

Well, they went into that studio mentioned above to do the album, but that´s an example how pros work and better spend their time practising and playing their instruments than tinkering w/ technology,- and enjoy life.

You see, it works.
This guy is making and selling albums and touring around the globe for many decades and I always enjoyed visiting his gigs and watch him performing w/ Sammy Avila on the organ.

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

The big place in Vegas actually runs Logic tracks into to SSL4000G+ out into your choice of 3 Tape machines.

There´s the bus directly into the bin missing ...

But these kids pay extra for Tape and the guy is making 1000s a week from underfround hip hop artists.

This !
My friend, owning the biggest studio here, he pulled out all the old tape machines, now people come and pay again.
There´s also Logic and SSL.

Another one, who could never made a living w/ music before, he bought a lot of my old analog gear, especially FX like Roland Rack series and some stomp boxes, bought from other´s too and for cheap and collected.
Nowadays he makes a living because people come to his studio and pay because it´s vintage.
He always had MAC & Logic, excellent audio interface and keys, NORD and real Hammond as well as plugins, but that was for a hobby.
Analog is what now makes the money here again.

Bud

[Bud Weiser]

I also learned how limits were a good thing.
They force you to commit to ideas and to have arrangements settled BEFORE you start recording.

Exactly !

I had 8 tracks but lost 2, one for the SMPTE, the other because of the crosstalk of SMPTE, so I left it free always.
Atari w/ Unitor N and Notator synced to the machine because for keys I recorded MIDI only, had guitars and vocals on tape.
With some careful bouncing, that was enough.
The drums always became the most complex task, I programmed drummachines nearly a day for 1 title to make sure it sounds and grooves like a drummer.
Well, I needed a lot of mixer channels when doing a mixdown directly to DAT.

These concepts are mostly (but not universally) lost today

Yes.

Bud

[garyb]

Possibly. But maybe the tape loop could be a weakness. How often did the tape cartridges in the old Melos echo decks need replacing in a pro studio ?

not very often at all. in a Roland Space echo, anyone with some 1/4" tape and some cellophane tape could make a new tape in about 15 minutes for next to nothing. the tapes last for years, though.

[dante]

I had 8 tracks but lost 2, one for the SMPTE, the other because of the crosstalk of SMPTE, so I left it free always.

I always used up the sync track w/ final vocal, after doing bouncing. You can use all 8 tracks that way.

If needed to sync after that you could hand sync because of having 16 beat hi hat count in at start. That's all you needed to retard the feed spool or push the take up spool with hand till it match Atari sequence

Possibly. But maybe the tape loop could be a weakness. How often did the tape cartridges in the old Melos echo decks need replacing in a pro studio ?

not very often at all. in a Roland Space echo, anyone with some 1/4" tape and some cellophane tape could make a new tape in about 15 minutes for next to nothing. the tapes last for years, though.

Cool. Maybe it would work then !

[tlaskows]

All this talk wants me to save up for a tape machine...

How much for an 60s Ampex?

-Tom

[garyb]

it's not the cost of the machine.
it's the cost of rebuilding and maintaining it.

you can find a machine from the 60s, 70s or 80s for $1000. then there's a constant stream of money need to keep it running, probably several thousand to get it up to speed, and plenty more where that came from. it never stops.

oh! one other problem...most of the good techs who could fix it and help you get it going are dead or retired. the ones that are still working are mostly burned out or over worked. have fun! a tape deck is for a real engineer who can practically build the machine himself, or it is a status piece that shows how much money you have to burn for heat in the winter. if you have extra cash after a winters worth of burning it in the woodstove, you have enough money to operate the machine.

[jksuperstar]

Gary, that is the best description of tape I've heard yet. I always felt many emulations were driven by marketing and sales telling you what you need, hence my endless sarcasm on the subject. But there's always technical reasons, like avoiding maintenance, too.

[garyb]

well, that's also part of the beauty of tape, i guess.
back when tape was the only option, people who actually had home studios were hard core nutcases for audio. even the real studio had hardcore nutcases running them. only someone who really loved audio could deal with building the studio and maintaining the gear. these days, every idiot with a computer thinks that he's a real producer and he just leaves audio knowledge to the plugins....

[garyb]

I just watched a short doc on Tidal about DNA's new album 'Daywave'. There is video of him slamming tracks on to a cheap (and in my experience shitty sounding) Akai 2300 2track at 7 ips (I have one in the basement) then back into Logic. Definitely an inexpensive way to experience tape. Whatever floats your boat!

yeah, that's a perfect example of someone who doesn't understand what is happening. he could get the same or better effect without the extra step, but i guess you can't argue with results...