trying out Cognitone Synfire Pro trial

[kensuguro]

Finally got around to installing Synfire Pro trial. It needs iLok manager, and the actual software (if bought) needs the physical iLok. Bleh. Anyway, here's what I'm seeing so far:

1. The app overall doesn't feel like a DAW. I view it as computer aided composing, but overall layout isn't quite friendly to a normal DAW operating composer. The UI if highly custom to Synfire's own distinctive workflow so a lot of it doesn't make immediate sense. The workflow isn't exactly play in some stuff -> use AI magic and make it awesome -> mix down, it revolves more around throwing around MIDI snippets (which I think you can record in app, but haven't figured out how) -> create a chord progress -> map the MIDI snippets and tweak the "flow" a bit -> and as far as mixing and other DAW-ish things, it seems best done in DAW through Synfire's export workflow.

2. Ultimately, it seems to want to behave like a keyboard arranger. Lots of theory and all, but at the end of the day, it seems to take in MIDI phrases, and makes them work within a specific chord progression. It does it with good music theory fluency and accuracy, but ultimately what you get isn't too far off from remapping an arrangement from one chord progression to another. I personally wouldn't call that composing, since you'd rarely just straight up map one arrangement into the another. The lines change and the phrasing changes pretty dramatically depending on the progression. (at least the way I like to work) It's labeled as a "prototyping tool", so perhaps it's good for trying things out.. but for actual production, I think this approach is too limiting.

But, it may be useful in specific instances, like if creating an arrangement for 1 progression takes up a chunk of time. (like with strings) It's still tough though, because those arrangements are the ones that are even more sensitive to progression, so remapping simply doesn't work. I can also imagine it being useful for repetitive phrases like super fast string loops... but if they're looping, I don't think you need a $1000 piece of software to do what an arpeggiator can do.

3. Synfire trial comes with a bunch of demo sequences.. They don't really sound good. Not because they're going through an internal GM wavetable synth, but composition wise they're very, very peculiar sounding. So my first impression was not very good. I guess it would be okay if someone with absolutely no knowledge of composition could produce these results, but I'm not sure if that's an accomplishment to strive for.

4. There seems to be some level of "interpretive" playing, but I'm not sure how to make the controls affect what I'm hearing. The UI is just.. so confusing. I guess I should say, it's just "non standard", because maybe the way it's laid out makes perfect sense if I knew exactly what I as doing. (but that's not very intuitive) If I can get this to work and it plays the notation with natural interpretation, whatever that means, then that's pretty awesome.

So at the end, I'm kind of confused who this is for. A $1000 arpeggiator that's pretty smart sounds like a pretty serious piece of gear. But the results are not really on par with what you'd need for production grade material. The main difficulty I find with its particular workflow is getting material in and out of it. If I can put in MIDI and quickly make 4 part arrangements out of it via just drawing contour lines, then that's some value.. but as it stands it doesn't seem quite that smooth, or at least I haven't figured it out yet.

But fundamentally, the art of arrangement isn't that easy. It's partially governed by logic and theory, but a large part of it is just stylistic decision making. The theory and logic I think is the easy part. Maybe hard for some, for whom Synfire can be helpful for. I guess in a way it can free up resources to concentrate on the stylistic choices... Realistically, though, I don't think a lot of composers are struggling with keeping in line with music theory... a piece doesn't really fall apart there. If it does, the that's a more elementary problem. You can view it as Synfire enabling people without the theory knowledge or experience to compose.. but then those people probably also don't have the knowledge and experience to make good stylistic choices. Not necessarily true, but most likely true.

[kensuguro]

I tried all evening trying to record some midi into Synfire and my conclusion is that either something's wrong with my setup or it's a bug. I can trigger Microsoft's wavetable synth fine (only works via direct audio) but when I record, it collapses everything I play into a single frame.. so basically loses all timing info. Shouldn't be what happens as I see in the tutorial it's supposed to record just like you would with any DAW, except there is an analysis phase right after, that converts the played sequence into a relative to chord root sort of data that becomes key and chord progression agnostic. (which is kind of cool) I'm going to see if I can get some tech support.. but as it's a demo I think it'll be an uphill battle..

[dante]

So basically instead of creating a chord out of each note you play it makes a single chord out of all notes you play. Hey, it's a subtle distinction isn't it ?

[kensuguro]

I did get the MIDI record to work. It's literally like building a pattern for a keyboard. I had a Yamaha keyboard thing that allowed user patterns, and I remember creating patterns with that. The nice thing with Synfire I guess is that you set a chord progression, play the base line or whatever, and it makes stores it in a progression agnostic representation. From there you can remap it to different progressions. The strange thing is, even if I play the base exactly how I want it (along a progression), after the analysis and mapping back to the progression, the line turns out slightly different. I'm assuming the scale associated with each chord determines the avoid notes and all that, so I might need to tweak those to get the line back to how I played it.

This part of the workflow I'm not a fan of. It's nice to be able to record stuff and turn it into an infinitely reusable format, but it feels like I don't have too much detailed control over how it gets mapped to a new chord progression.. and many times it doesn't make the most intuitive (cool sounding) choices. I might be able to set things up so the remapping is more appropriate, but it feels like this is about as removed from actual composing as you can get. Where as I can just play it exactly how I want in a few seconds.

But put aside the technicalities of remapping, and in theory, this thing is great. I'm beginning to see the benefits. I don't compose by piecing together snippets of phrases and such, but with a lot of loop based / pattern based song writing, this is somewhat close to piecing together loops in acid. Just that the loops themselves are much, much more malleable. And with different combination of phrases and chord progression, I can see why "prototyping" was an appropriate word. It's about the ability to produce tons of content in a very short amount of time. Not the best or the most polished, but very quick. It's not the highest form of composing for sure, but it's a valid workflow. I also think the need may exist. There's surprisingly a high demand for "filler" music.. not really good or bad, but just there to fill up some space. Surprisingly this precise mediocrity has market value.

I dunno.. the workflow isn't right.. but I can immediately put this thing to use for all the projects that I get that don't really require full attention. It's a slippery slope I'm sure, and it'll be a negative impact on maintaining technique, etc. but I do see practical applications for this. There clearly ones that I need to give the best I got, but some projects clearly don't need that much commitment. In my mind, I'm probably performing similar operations as Synful's logic processor would, making arbitrary choices that don't sound too bad, but doesn't really break new ground. And in the end, if that is what is asked of the job, does it really matter whether I wrote it or pieced it together from bits of material I've written earlier? And... in the end, do we need more of this mediocrity? Machine produced or not. Obviously I'm not too enthusiastic about producing bleh stuff, so it makes sense to just have a robot do it instead.

[SilverScoper]

A-list Acoustic Guitarist in Reason is interesting.

Play rootnote of selected scale and it decides on major or minor as you play. But if you don't like the decision you can play the full triad to override.

In the left hand you can press a note to change the strumming rhythm.

It's a totally different way of playing keyboard and a learning curve if you have a progression already written. But if you don't and just improvise, you can get some really unique sounding progressions - similar to those you might get on an Autoharp but more sophisticated rhythm and chord wise. You can play 4 note 7th etc chords as well.

Real time human overriding machine decisions is way to go.

[rockguitarzan]

Lots of potential. Steep learning curve. Great customer support. As challenging as learning a real instrument to make music

[braincell]

I would love to own it but the price is too high considering I like to maintain a few of my programs and it's getting expensive. If somehow Cognitone made this a VST plugin, I would probably buy it right away. It sucks having to jump back and forth between programs. Synfire seems like something I would use a lot. I don't want to run the demo because I might then need it.

[astroman]

the functionality reminds me a lot on Band in a Box, just not as ugly ... and less pre-focussed
because: in BiaB you can define own rules and styles and even turn your own audio recordings into 'realtracks'
(so it's not midi restricted)

cheers, Tom

[braincell]

the functionality reminds me a lot on Band in a Box, just not as ugly ... and less pre-focussed
because: in BiaB you can define own rules and styles and even turn your own audio recordings into 'realtracks'
(so it's not midi restricted)

cheers, Tom

This seems much more advanced and pro than BIAB.

I have played with midi files I downloaded from the web. That is fun alone. They are onto something here but for a new program, the price seems high. If they have a big sale, let me know though.