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 Post subject: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:27 pm 
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Joined: Sun Sep 15, 2002 4:00 pm
Posts: 2041
Location: Copenhagen
I think this platform needs something else than emulations of retro analogue synths.

An emulation of the holy grail of FM/Formant synthesis, the Yamaha FS1R might attract some attention. Especially if it came with a user friendly interface - You know, the thing computers are actually good at, compared to rack synths :)

The Yamaha FS1R is becomming expensive on the second hand market. People are praising it's capabilties to produce "out of this world" sounds, but programming it must be a nightmare.

Emulate this beast (including it's D/A-converters), create a user friendly interface and include the capability to import presets from the real thing and I think we have a winner.

What do you think - is it even possible to do this in the Scope SDK?


Links to get inspired:

An overview:
http://www.vintagesynth.com/yamaha/fs1r.php

A video demo of sounds:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xfVgo-FBihU

Soundcloud soundclips:
https://soundcloud.com/search?q=FS1r


Last edited by petal on Tue Mar 18, 2014 4:12 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Tue Mar 18, 2014 3:56 pm 
the guy in de video demo is amazing :D
Nice sounds, some very nice. Formant filtering definitely ads to the spectrum :)


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Wed Mar 19, 2014 5:01 am 
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8 ops

so would need 8 sin fm osc with waveshaping as the fs1r has the extra waveforms from the sy77/99

theirs already a format filter in bc modular but both the kawai and the fs1r have many more bands the k5000 digital formant filter has 128 bandpass bands

but i think a sy99/formant filter would be better than the fs1r

as it has upto 4 layers awm sample players poly 4 note

it has 4fm layers mono thats 28 fm osc

and can do 1 layer fm and 1 layer awm with 16 poly for both

the 2afm layers can do 8 note poly

and the 2awm 8 note poly

and the 2afm/2awm 8poly for both

it also has a a res lowpass filter a bandpass and highpass no res

now with roy thines dx module you could get a 6op fm in a clm on one dsp

and reuse the clm module then filters could be added in a separate clm module for different filter types

i had a fs1r and still own a sy99 the sy99 is much more a versatile synth and why i still have it

the fs1r does sound good but programming new fm type sounds was pita from front screen and there was never a very good editor for it

it was mostly used to convert fm dx7 patches and adding the formant filtering which there are over 20,000+ patches available

but the sy99 is a programmers dream synth 4afm leads are fat when layered and detuned and you can do some great performance presets as in like the dx1 where 2 patches can be used and what made the dx1 sound great

i would be up for creating a modular patch with 6op fm and sample players with different switchable filters


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 12:02 pm 
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Location: Copenhagen
Thanks for tuning in.

I'd love to se your FM patch with all the whistles and bells!

I do however think I'd be able to program a 6op/8op FM-synth in modular myself - I might even be able to recreate the fs1r in modular if I sat down and wrapped my head around it.

What I was aiming for was a FS1R clone with the ability to import sounds from the real thing and with a good user interface. This last bit is important.
The best interface for FM synthesis I've come across so far is the FM7/FM8. It's easy to navigate, and it's easy to understand what is going on.

It is propably never gonna happen unless I sit down and learn my self the SDK6, once we get a new interface builder that will be capable of the level of userfriendliness that I'm looking for.

And maybe another important question to answer would be, what and where would we gain any sound quality by building an FM-synth on Scope - Would it sound better than say FM8, and if yes, why?

Cheers,
Thomas


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:25 pm 
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fm8 does not even come close in sound to a original dx7 or the updated dx7s/11 or dx1/dx5 or the sy77/99

and why i have the sy99

your biggest problem of all is a sysex to preset convertor for scope devices


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 1:45 pm 
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Location: Copenhagen
I realize that, but my guess is that it is not the oscilators in this case. Propably more the D/A-converters in this case, which is why I suggested a recreation of it in my first post.

But maybe you know which parts of a recreation of the FS1R would be most crucial to get the sound right and why?

And yes, the preset converter is gonna be a problem...


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 2:40 pm 
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the fs1r uses special asic chips as does all the yamaha fm synths

they are just built for fm synthesis (not really fm)all controls and synth features are done via a cpu and the asic chip

theirs no dsp involved plus also the yamaha actually used phase rather than fm like the cz synths also used

now the dacs are also a custom yamaha part

also yamaha used a funny system for there tuning and scalling

and why emulations also miss the mark also there detune -7 is not actually -7 cents or - 7 semi tones but an fraction of a semi tone

there are 1200 cents to an octave because they do it to a sample period (not frequency) to the resolution of whole nano seconds (e.g. 33.333KHz = 30000ns) so that there tuning is 0.853333 of a cent

its the same for the pitches for the awm engine on the sy85 and sy77/99

also on the sy99 and the fs1r you have control of the algo creation so that you can create unlimited fm algo if you want feed back on each operator you can you can do 4 stacked 2op fm with each 2op with a feed back to the next 2op stack

plus you have 16 waveforms to choose from

so on a dx7 or fm7 or fm8

you need 2 ops to create the first input waveform on a sy or fs1r and on these you can choose any of the 16 waveforms for each op

which is impossible on the dx7 or software versions

on the sy99 you can use a pcm sound as a modulator no other fm system allows this

so you could create a 8 op sin osc synth but actually creating the algo system emulating it will need some special custom modules

like i said a dx7 version is possible because a custom module exists by roy thines

and thats where i would start first as most sounds on the fs1r are actual converted dx7 sysex

and dont even use the 7th or 8th op

first if your new to modular i would start of with an fm 6op using the algo switch module perfect that first then add a formant filter or create your own using bandpass filers minimum is 3 but the more the better


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Sun Mar 23, 2014 3:16 pm 
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Thanks for sharing your knowledge.

Sounds like, even if it is possible to totally recreate the FS1R or even "just" the DX7 in modular it would end up having a pretty complicated interface, compared to fx what NI managed to create with FM7/FM8.
Which brings me back to the initial idea I posted.

Meanwhile I think I'm gonna enjoy the good old FM4 and Roy's DxCwm.


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2014 2:26 am 
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yes use the dxcwm as that uses roys special custom algo switch module that has the algo of the dx7

and yes its a big module in modular i would do it on several clm modules then wire up those modules with controls by doing that you can create very big modular synths but the main page will look small due to the clm modules

and i just have the controls i need to use on show


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Fri Apr 04, 2014 9:58 am 
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If people, like me, are curious about the FS1R, here's a good introduction to what you are in for, if you get your hands on one of these beasts:

http://stimresp.wordpress.com/fs1r-videos/


And a link to the freeware editor, which is being used in the videos from the link above:

http://synth-voice.sakura.ne.jp/fs1r_ed ... glish.html


Last edited by petal on Thu Apr 10, 2014 11:44 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2014 12:05 pm 
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And I found this link:

http://blog.zacharcher.com/tag/fs1r/

I guess the most interesting thing here is the formant sequence editor which is provided at that link. It contains all the original 90 formant sequences in syx-format, and it will enable you to create new formant sequences for your FS1r if you've got one.

Now the big question is, if it would be possible to create a formant operator modular module in Scope!?
If indeed this is possible, we would be very close to be able to recreate the FS1R in the Scope Modular or at least very similar synths.

So what do you think, is it possible?

viewtopic.php?f=30&t=32842


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 1:27 pm 
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Ah well, I guess it' never gonna happen anyway.

Happy birthday Thomas :)


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Tue Jan 06, 2015 11:41 pm 
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Location: Utah
I vote for this too!!!!


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 2:24 am 
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I still think it would be an interesting synth for the Scope platform.

We would need an SDK capable guy to create the engine and have him work together with this guys external editor for the FS1R combined with all the good interface ideas from FM7/8 (ie: the algo-matrix is superb in my opinion)

http://zeeedit.free.fr/

Do this and I think we have a new interesting monster synth for Scope that would catch attention from non-scope users.

But what do I care, I have the real thing now :)


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Wed Jan 07, 2015 12:11 pm 
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Location: San Francisco
+1 maybe we could make kickstarter for this project


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 6:35 am 
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FS1Rs should just be purchased, as any old hardware these days since it's so cheap.
Folks really need to get on the Modular IV/BC Modular/Scope Sync thing and make stuff you can't buy.

_________________
https://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/solaris-demos-1
http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:19 am 
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I did just buy one - and yes it is a beast. Very deep synth and I'm still trying to get my head around it.

I've been following the market price since I bought mine for 500€, which was a good price. For the past months I've seen several sell for 900-1000$/€ on ebay.

So no, they actually don't come cheap these days:

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R4 ... =&_sacat=0


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Mon Mar 02, 2015 11:23 am 
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dawman wrote:
Folks really need to get on the Modular IV/BC Modular/Scope Sync thing and make stuff you can't buy.


I am moving in that direction. That is actually why I'm looking for HW synths atm. To learn hands on - I'm tired of mouse clicking.

Once I have a better hands on feeling of how synthesis work, I'll have a better Idea about how to use Modular - I hope.


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Sat Dec 05, 2015 7:10 pm 
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So how do you like the ZeeEdit?
Makes programming a breeze.
Finally decided to get rid of the Microwave 1 and keep the FS1r.
Drug it out with the SE-1X and have a 4U with FS1r and the SE-1X.

Will be using it lots so can share some XITE-1 and FS1r tricks soon.
I like the FX but the Fireworx just rules.
Especially the FS1r Guitar stuff using extra Distortion from the Fireworx.

Cheers

_________________
https://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/solaris-demos-1
http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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 Post subject: Re: Scope FS1R - Now with an interface to match the sound
PostPosted: Mon Dec 07, 2015 9:49 am 
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It's not a FS1r emulation, but a good software alternative I've found is Blue 2. Really deep. May not have the mojo of those old hardware units, but the ease of use more than makes up for any shortcomings for me.


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