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 Post subject: Better GUI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 6:40 pm 
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After not using Scope for some time, (because they refused to make a 64 bit driver) I have gone back to Scope for mixing only. The reason why is the GUI is ridiculously tedious to use. They should have a look at Cubase or Reason. Scope is designed to sound good and to look cool but actually using it is a pain in the ass. Why are there no keyboard shortcuts? I think emulating the look of hardware in software is a really stupid idea. Even if you insist on being retro, Reason makes retro that is easy to use. Are they going to move forward with the GUI or just stick with the original bad GUI? Over 10 years and no major change to the GUI. I know they are a small company but this is ridiculous!


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 7:28 pm 
it's a bit outdated in it's performance to the user.
Nameing the project for instance, preset handling, project and preset saving environment, stupid messages.
The overall concept of the project window however is unbeaten.
Annoyances against total flexibility, I wouldn't think of having to miss the virtual studio with all hw In/Outs.
For new customers is could be a bit distracting at first sight tho.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 8:15 pm 
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In Reason all the patch cables are hidden unless you press the Tab key but you end up rarely needing to do that. Part of the problem with Scope is that it does not do audio recording unless you count the ADAT thing which is again, ridiculously more difficult to use than it should be and does not include editing of wave forms. They could have fixed a lot of this a long time ago by adding Rewire and I'm not sure why they didn't. It would make my life so much better. I don't think they really care how it works with Cubase.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Wed Mar 27, 2013 9:12 pm 
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Rewire is for application to application communication, what do you get with rewire instead of just using ASIO?


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:01 am 
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Well cable hiding in the routing window is kinda pointless.

Hopefully the new Scope6 will bring some changes!!! It should be here soon ;)


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 3:37 am 
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braincell wrote:
After not using Scope for some time, (because they refused to make a 64 bit driver) I have gone back to Scope for mixing only.


First off they never refused to do a 64-bit driver (please point me to the thread or news item where an SC employee stated this) and second you only have to do a very cursory search of this forum to see that it is more than a driver required - it is not your M-Audio or RME card we're talking about here, which you should know if you actually use Scope.


braincell wrote:
I don't think they really care how it works with Cubase.


It works fine with Cubase or any other ASIO-based DAW. What issues are you having? I could explain to you how to get it running very easily if you are having problems.

I'm not saying that Scope couldn't do with some GUI improvements, I'm all for any improvements, but why surround you potentially interesting thread idea with the usual whining, misinformation and lack of basic knowledge?


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 12:17 pm 
braincell wrote:
Part of the problem with Scope is that it does not do audio recording

That's not 'a problem of Scope', you should get Protools for that and pay 50,000.
Specially if you have problems with handling a Windows machine.
I grew up with Pro24 and Cubase together with Scope on mac, and never ever have serious problems.
Well, midi handling by Opcode's midi environment on OS9 was clumsy, but OSX is wonderful.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 5:57 pm 
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braincell wrote:
In Reason all the patch cables are hidden unless you press the Tab key but you end up rarely needing to do that.


Far prefer the Scope cabling to the Reason cabling - Scope gives a much better overview. Reason you have to scroll round and its not as free routing as scope.

HOWEVER - a gui that combined the best of both Scope cabling with Reason racking/cabling would be awesome.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Thu Mar 28, 2013 6:19 pm 
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Why not troll properly braincell? This is all a bit Lite compared with niceboy's herculean efforts. Try harder :)


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Fri Mar 29, 2013 4:35 am 
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wayne just be grateful we have some activity here for once :P


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:11 am 
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jksuperstar wrote:
Rewire is for application to application communication, what do you get with rewire instead of just using ASIO?


It automatically names tracks and automatically connects all devices to Cubase. It syncs the tempo, it allows you to export the audio (very good for scope) also it saves all those connections. Basically Rewire was designed to make a seamless integration with third party software. Anyone who has used Rewire would know how much better it would make Scope. Obviously the people at SC have never used it or it would be a #1 priority.


Last edited by braincell on Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:13 am 
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FrancisHarmany wrote:
wayne just be grateful we have some activity here for once :P


I see the people I put on ignore still insist on replying in my threads. I promise you I can't read a word they write about anything and never will. They should learn to use ignore rather than whining about people like little babies.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 7:35 am 
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hubird wrote:
braincell wrote:
Part of the problem with Scope is that it does not do audio recording

That's not 'a problem of Scope', you should get Protools for that and pay 50,000.
Specially if you have problems with handling a Windows machine.
I grew up with Pro24 and Cubase together with Scope on mac, and never ever have serious problems.
Well, midi handling by Opcode's midi environment on OS9 was clumsy, but OSX is wonderful.


Well typically I like to name my tracks, then I have to do the same thing all over again in Scope. That is twice as much work then you get into patching etc and you are doing everything twice when you should just be thinking about your music. I make a lot of tracks and delete a lot of tracks. I stand by my statement in fact I will put it to you this way, it's a pain in the ass. The other thing I didn't mention I don't like is the small size of the text in Scope when there is so much empty space that isn't being used for anything. I would like all my modules to be 100% full screen (with more data visible) and switch between them with shortcuts. None of this mousing around BS. An example is the Minimax with another screen you can only get to by clicking on a "More." Just because they wanted it to look pretty, they sacrificed functionality. That is exactly what I'm talking about. I don't want to have to click yet again to get to what I want. There is too much mousing and clicking.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:54 am 
braincell wrote:
Well typically I like to name my tracks, then I have to do the same thing all over again in Scope. That is twice as much work then you get into patching etc and you are doing everything twice when you should just be thinking about your music. I make a lot of tracks and delete a lot of tracks. I stand by my statement in fact I will put it to you this way, it's a pain in the ass. The other thing I didn't mention I don't like is the small size of the text in Scope when......

That's a meager profit for the user to do the effort of hooking up Rewire to Scope by S/C, especially if you have Cubase in use anyway.
OSX for example is much more relevant to the platform, to name something.
The rest of your points have nothing to do with Rewire.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 5:49 pm 
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I must admit I like it when renaming a device in Reason, the renaming reflects automatically in Cubase.

If Scope did the same thing (via a rewire implementation) to me that would be an improvement to Scope.

Irrespective of development priorities, identifying an improvement is identifying an imrpovement (whether it gets done or not is a different story so shouldn't neccessarily stop discussion).

Rewire is an evolution above ASIO as there can be some exchange of data about what is being connected, like USB improved over the old Serial cable.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 6:46 pm 
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braincell wrote:
They should learn to use ignore rather than whining about people like little babies.


How do you know what we're saying if we're on ignore? :P

Anyway, as I stated before, a potentially good topic, marred by the usual "anti-Scope/Cubase is perfect" rhetoric. Leave that out (and comments like "it should the #1 priority") and you might actually have an interesting thread.

Oh, but you can't see this, I forgot. :D


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Mon Apr 01, 2013 10:35 pm 
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with Rewire, Reason is a plugin inside Cubase.

this just wouldn't be practical with Scope. to program such an interface, one that worked in all hosts and not just a favored app like ProTools, it would take ten times the current S|C manpower and several years. it's a nice idea, but it's unlikely in any short term context.

even though Scope seems to be in the computer, and even though it is an interface between the real world and the computer, Scope is still essentially EXTERNAL HARDWARE. expecting it to behave like pure software is unreasonable. ahem.

look, if sound QUALITY is the foremost priority, even over money, you want discrete hardware, period. end of story.
Scope is the next closest thing to that hardware, but it's a fraction of the cost and it's more convienient than hardware to use. everytime you gain something, like convienience, you lose something. that includes gains in sound quality. when you have gains in sound quality, you lose something. in the computer world, that would include losses in usability. i really am not convinced that when anything that can be imagined can be instantly translated into reality will always be a good thing. it might be cool for one situation or person or persons, but not for every situation or human. sometimes the struggle is part of the process that filters out crap.

in no way am i saying that these kinds of communications between machines aren't a nice idea, or that there shouldn't even be the effort to realize them. that would be stupid. i'm saying, it's just the decoration on an already iced cake. if Scope interferes with one's "creativity", one needs to hone one's craft. a poor mechanic blames his tools. this would hardly be the "highest priority".

actually, for anyone familiar with audio equipment, the Scope gui is unbelievably effective and simple. i knew everything i needed to know about 15 minutes into opening Scope the first time. that is a good gui. extending naming and timings into and out of the sequencer without having to set up the sequencer would be a cool addition, though.


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:25 am 
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Gary, Being simple to understand does not equate to being simple to use. Where are the keyboard shortcuts?

Having an audio sequencer which can import OMF format would be a major step up for SC even if it is initially limited in functionality such as wave editing. That's not rocket science and no more difficult to do than what they are doing. They already have VDAT which records audio. You just can't say it's perfect or does not need improvement Gary. That is not helpful to them or for us.

Update: I just read that Parseq will be an audio/midi sequencer for Scope 6. Maybe it will be what I'm looking for. It took a third party just for this idea?


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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 9:38 am 
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braincell wrote:

It took a third party just for this idea?



No! It is Sonic Core who is developing Open-SCOPE so that ANY DAW developer (Sonar, Cubase, Parseq, etc) can code into their DAW the REALtime SCOPE Platform and be sort of like Protools dsp but with more flexibility and potential. DAW integration of SCOPE is Sonic Core's idea ultimately threw Open-SCOPE. Sonic Core decided to Open the platform up so that people with your type wants/needs can have them fully addressed as time passes. Letting third-party handle DAW's and have a huge hand in developing SCOPE rather then trying to do it all themselves will allow for much faster development and more possibilities for SCOPE. Sonic Core is'nt directly developing DAW's they are developing the bigger and more importing thing that allows for DAW integration and more, they leave DAW's to third-party as they work on the underlying architecture of this platform wich allows for a far more flexible, powerful and comprehensive Platform.

PS. The person who owns the third-party company that's developing parseq works for Sonic Core.


EDITED


Last edited by Sounddesigner on Thu Apr 04, 2013 9:43 am, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Better GUI
PostPosted: Wed Apr 03, 2013 11:40 am 
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As far as a Scope implementation of rewire goes, its low on my priority list. But if ParseQ implments it or OpenScope makes it possible for someone to implement it then great. However, ASIO is usable instead.

Since Reason will soon have full MIDI capability I'm one step away from getting rid of Cubase, assuming ParseQ will host VST's (Kontakt) then the only reason I'd be using Cubase at all is the variaudio function.

Having Reason + ParseQ/Scope cover off all required functionality (eliminating big ticket DAW such as Cubase) would make for a much simpler (and lower cost) work flow.


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