Piano for Scope
Re: Piano for Scope
i was just saying 10 note poly at 20% on a 36 dsp system so you proberly could do many more than 10 notes
and adding filters and other things thats for you todo as i have not added any loops
i was just saying it can be done
and i have done 1 mod dev of it
and adding filters and other things thats for you todo as i have not added any loops
i was just saying it can be done
and i have done 1 mod dev of it
- Bud Weiser
- Posts: 2684
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 am
- Location: nowhere land
Re: Piano for Scope
Ah, o.k. I see.jhulk wrote:i was just saying 10 note poly at 20% on a 36 dsp system so you proberly could do many more than 10 notes
and adding filters and other things thats for you todo as i have not added any loops
i was just saying it can be done
and i have done 1 mod dev of it
I´m curious how it will sound anyway and because there are a lot of purposes not needing lots of voices.
Let´s say, playing complex classical or jazz stuff needs all the features we already know from VST Piano emulations as well as some hardware instruments.
Bud
Re: Piano for Scope
well if you want to beta test it
and let me know your thoughts we vcan come up with something
but need your private email to send you the folder with the dev and the samples
and let me know your thoughts we vcan come up with something
but need your private email to send you the folder with the dev and the samples
Re: Piano for Scope
Yeah Bud would make a good reviewer for Acoustic Piano dev as he is a real keyboard player (unlike me who pretends by programming MIDI sequence) but sure I will beta test as well.
I think making something physically modelled on DSP as comprehensive as PianoTeq would take a lot of DSP programming, whereas the DSP work fixing a few minor bugs on STS would be much less work, so making possible the loading of a decent AKAI piano onto it.
Then again we'll see what JHulk's PianoDev can do !
Maybe better than STS ?
I think making something physically modelled on DSP as comprehensive as PianoTeq would take a lot of DSP programming, whereas the DSP work fixing a few minor bugs on STS would be much less work, so making possible the loading of a decent AKAI piano onto it.
Then again we'll see what JHulk's PianoDev can do !
Maybe better than STS ?
- Bud Weiser
- Posts: 2684
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 am
- Location: nowhere land
Re: Piano for Scope
Hi !jhulk wrote:well if you want to beta test it
and let me know your thoughts we vcan come up with something
but need your private email to send you the folder with the dev and the samples
Thx for the offer !
I´d like to, but I´m very busy atm.
I´ll shoot you a PM when it makes sense and earliest upcoming week.
best
Bud
- Bud Weiser
- Posts: 2684
- Joined: Tue Sep 14, 2010 5:29 am
- Location: nowhere land
Re: Piano for Scope
Thx Dante !dante wrote:Yeah Bud would make a good reviewer for Acoustic Piano dev as he is a real keyboard player (unlike me who pretends by programming MIDI sequence) but sure I will beta test as well.
You probably imagine what´s up here, so I have very limited time only.
Good you and Jimmy do too !
I´ll chime in as soon as I can.
Maybe not only AKAI in future,- I hope ...dante wrote: ... whereas the DSP work fixing a few minor bugs on STS would be much less work, so making possible the loading of a decent AKAI piano onto it.
There was good stuff for AKAI S-1000 / 3000 in the past, but all limited sample sets depending on hardware AKAI´s 32MB RAM size limit.
So, we probably will rarely find long multi-sample sets in AKAI format.
It´s worth a try anyway being an alternative concept and who knows what can be done to improve it.dante wrote: Then again we'll see what JHulk's PianoDev can do !
Maybe better than STS ?
I´m not deep into Modular up to now by lack of time, so that might be the occasion.
Given the fact we´re discussing a wishlist thread here,- the idea to get STS samplers w/ DFD streaming shouldn´t be ignored and if we´d have a sample oscillator in Modular doing the same would improve creating sample based devices for SCOPE in future.
I don´t have a SDK, so no idea what the limits for sample usage in Modular are up to now.
Bud
Re: Piano for Scope
the limitations as they are is no start or end sample params no loop params
so this limits it very much as most samplers have this velocity to move the sample start forward meaning no attack phase this is good when doing brass type sounds
no setting of loops this is also a pain as
no loop modulation this would give us wavetable synthesis like ni reaktor
no multisample support keymaps means that if using only 1 sample say c5 for the whole keyboard range
becuase the sample is played slower at the c2 c1 range the transients loose there energy rather than the plosive attack like they should
also means to do a multisample instrument you have to use many sample osc which means more resorces as really it should be done with one sample osc
no release phase after sustain loop this is great for real tails of instruments and not synthesized by envelope as a lot are log release and not linear
one option is to have a container sample osc so that rather than loading wave files multi velocity samples keymaps like akai sf2 sfz kmp
where all the info is in the keymap file there would be a velocity input to the sample osc so that it could switch between velocity layers and multisample layers
this is what vsti instruments do with there sample osc been available for 8-10 years now on native
thats what makes kontakt good
but the filters are basic in kontakt unlike the modular ones
so the modular sample os only lets you set low key root key and top key it reads the loop info from the wave or aiff or akai sample file and pitch coarse and fine
the sample osc is the weakest link in the modular as is and is the only thing that needs to change as every thing else is easily doable with the modular modules
what i would like to see in a mdl is stereo switch stereo in to 2-4 sets of outs and 4-2 ins to 1 stereo out
as it is for switching sets that need 2 inputs to both be switched means i have to use 2 switches
which is a pain as i have to write notes explaning if switching one you need to switch the other
so to recap its the use of multisamples that make sample instruments great
and things like piano having a multisample for every key say 88 notes in one osc would be the bomb
and would use a lot less dsp resources
so this limits it very much as most samplers have this velocity to move the sample start forward meaning no attack phase this is good when doing brass type sounds
no setting of loops this is also a pain as
no loop modulation this would give us wavetable synthesis like ni reaktor
no multisample support keymaps means that if using only 1 sample say c5 for the whole keyboard range
becuase the sample is played slower at the c2 c1 range the transients loose there energy rather than the plosive attack like they should
also means to do a multisample instrument you have to use many sample osc which means more resorces as really it should be done with one sample osc
no release phase after sustain loop this is great for real tails of instruments and not synthesized by envelope as a lot are log release and not linear
one option is to have a container sample osc so that rather than loading wave files multi velocity samples keymaps like akai sf2 sfz kmp
where all the info is in the keymap file there would be a velocity input to the sample osc so that it could switch between velocity layers and multisample layers
this is what vsti instruments do with there sample osc been available for 8-10 years now on native
thats what makes kontakt good
but the filters are basic in kontakt unlike the modular ones
so the modular sample os only lets you set low key root key and top key it reads the loop info from the wave or aiff or akai sample file and pitch coarse and fine
the sample osc is the weakest link in the modular as is and is the only thing that needs to change as every thing else is easily doable with the modular modules
what i would like to see in a mdl is stereo switch stereo in to 2-4 sets of outs and 4-2 ins to 1 stereo out
as it is for switching sets that need 2 inputs to both be switched means i have to use 2 switches
which is a pain as i have to write notes explaning if switching one you need to switch the other
so to recap its the use of multisamples that make sample instruments great
and things like piano having a multisample for every key say 88 notes in one osc would be the bomb
and would use a lot less dsp resources
- ChrisWerner
- Posts: 1738
- Joined: Fri Aug 31, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Germany/Bavaria
- Contact:
Re: Piano for Scope
I did some tests with the Sample OSCs in the past and improvised how far I can get.
At least the Sample OSC can understand loop points written in the wav.
For more experimental sounds, someone can use two OSCs together, one has loaded the 'normal' looped wav the second holds a reversed version of the original sample,
Both OSCs are 'linked' with a mix module driven by an LFO or elastic module, this will give you some loop variations.
I can imagine experimenting with the gate signal on the Sample OSCs could end in a delayed trigger gate signal to start several Sample OSCs one after the other.... limitations gives place for improvisation. But yes a overworked sample OSC would be great, modular is years back in that matter
At least the Sample OSC can understand loop points written in the wav.
For more experimental sounds, someone can use two OSCs together, one has loaded the 'normal' looped wav the second holds a reversed version of the original sample,
Both OSCs are 'linked' with a mix module driven by an LFO or elastic module, this will give you some loop variations.
I can imagine experimenting with the gate signal on the Sample OSCs could end in a delayed trigger gate signal to start several Sample OSCs one after the other.... limitations gives place for improvisation. But yes a overworked sample OSC would be great, modular is years back in that matter
Re: Piano for Scope
well i have proved that multisampling can be done on scope modular
and with great results
but people with 64bit systems seem to have problems with poly and sample osc
jimmyv just beta tested my e-piano multisample instrument
and on my 36dsp system i can get 20 notes poly no problem on a p4 3.2 single core no ht with 2gb memory xp32 sp3
but he has problems on his xite which is much faster than my 36 dsp system
with 64bit only getting 4 note poly which defeats the object of an e-piano
the rmi is great as 10 notes is enough poly as the sustain on these is not very long compared to a acoustic piano
but one sample osc with a keymap function would be so much better and the modula dev would be tiny
compared to the amount of modules needed to do it now
this picture is from jimmyv 64bit setup and xcite
i cant wait until scope 6 comes then i can embed in the samples so you dont see the sample osc for instruments like this and only have the controls on show needed for operation
and with great results
but people with 64bit systems seem to have problems with poly and sample osc
jimmyv just beta tested my e-piano multisample instrument
and on my 36dsp system i can get 20 notes poly no problem on a p4 3.2 single core no ht with 2gb memory xp32 sp3
but he has problems on his xite which is much faster than my 36 dsp system
with 64bit only getting 4 note poly which defeats the object of an e-piano
the rmi is great as 10 notes is enough poly as the sustain on these is not very long compared to a acoustic piano
but one sample osc with a keymap function would be so much better and the modula dev would be tiny
compared to the amount of modules needed to do it now
this picture is from jimmyv 64bit setup and xcite
i cant wait until scope 6 comes then i can embed in the samples so you dont see the sample osc for instruments like this and only have the controls on show needed for operation
Re: Piano for Scope
Jhulk's Modular EPs are damn precise, but a Piano as in a grand will not happen due to the sheer amount of samples needed but the RMI and Pianet would be just fine as his details and precision are extreme, sound quality supreme. He does really well developed Modular patches, and I thank you as I have the RMI Howlin' Wolf sound dialed in.\
I would advice YayaJohn to check out the PhysMod PianoTeq 4.1, It takes no RAM that I notice, and can use 48k or 96k according to the host, but limited to 44.1 in standalone.
It also has an outstanding Wurltzer, RHodes and Clavinet, pick your choice and I shall do a demo of how realistic PhysMods have become, and the light resources needed to use them.
Demos at the website are mere MIDI files where the " artist " pretended to perform. A good give away is the lack of imperfect but better sounding grace notes.
Also worth mentioning is VSTi developers are still fucking our ass by sliding by on people who weren't really classically trained, so they believe the poor saps never saw the 3rd Sostenuto pedal, or the 4th Harmonic pedal on more modern designs. I am an asshole about spending money on incomplete instruments, and make no apologies, but with Piano Teq Pro it is as complete as they come.
For a Fellow Scope user I'd be glad to do a demo for you if you think you'd be interested.
I am actually smiling when playing this PhysMod since it's so fine of an instrument.
I think you'll be impressed.
I would advice YayaJohn to check out the PhysMod PianoTeq 4.1, It takes no RAM that I notice, and can use 48k or 96k according to the host, but limited to 44.1 in standalone.
It also has an outstanding Wurltzer, RHodes and Clavinet, pick your choice and I shall do a demo of how realistic PhysMods have become, and the light resources needed to use them.
Demos at the website are mere MIDI files where the " artist " pretended to perform. A good give away is the lack of imperfect but better sounding grace notes.
Also worth mentioning is VSTi developers are still fucking our ass by sliding by on people who weren't really classically trained, so they believe the poor saps never saw the 3rd Sostenuto pedal, or the 4th Harmonic pedal on more modern designs. I am an asshole about spending money on incomplete instruments, and make no apologies, but with Piano Teq Pro it is as complete as they come.
For a Fellow Scope user I'd be glad to do a demo for you if you think you'd be interested.
I am actually smiling when playing this PhysMod since it's so fine of an instrument.
I think you'll be impressed.
Re: Piano for Scope
thanks for the compliment jimmy im glad you like it
Re: Piano for Scope
Well a Scope Grand Piano would be nicer but I can see that ain't gonna happen so I prob will check out the PianoTeq sometime. Prob have to get a new hard drive since I am running out of space and if it's that good a grand piano it's got to be at least a few gigs?
Jhulk, I may hit you up for those files when I get back to my rig in Sep.
Thanks y'all
Dan
Jhulk, I may hit you up for those files when I get back to my rig in Sep.
Thanks y'all
Dan
Re: Piano for Scope
Yep. Here is a short improv I did on it loaded into the STS5000. I didnt bother turning off my mastering chain so theres probably a bit more bass and treble than on the dry instrument.ehasting wrote:btw: does anyone has the 'The Sample Collection' for STS samplers. with the piano included?
http://soundcloud.com/hitfoundry/sts-total-piano
Its really quite damn good, imagine what it could sound like in the right hands (my chops are a bit heavy handed). Theres no lack of expression and it take up geeze - 13Meg of HDD ? And the program loaded instantly into the STS, and you get that Scope clarity of sound.
Thats 13MB - not 13GB ! No new hard drives required there.
Kontakt and VST's are great for instruments that cant be done convicingly with small footprint. But for those that can STS still whips arse for clarity and live quick loading.
-
- Posts: 1638
- Joined: Mon Nov 15, 2010 12:57 pm
Re: Piano for Scope
except for those of us on x64.
Re: Piano for Scope
Hence this post :jksuperstar wrote:except for those of us on x64.
http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31259
If not, theres still the VolksSampler workaround.
Re: Piano for Scope
but thats the choice you have made using 64bit
32bit works fine why any body uses 64bit i really dont know
unless for games
you are the ginea pigs with 64bit os and will be until it matures say in 10years time
but by then mr bill gates would have brought out 4-5 newer versions of the same shit that wont run the stuff from before
and we will be on 128 bit by then
if it is not broken dont fix it
all the devs were written for 32bit sts5000 thats what 10 years old now thats older than kontakt 2
same for the sample osc in modular its getting on 10 years old but it still works perfectly in 32bit
dont blame the devs its the 64bit os thats the problem for both scope and xite users
jimmyv has been off loading his dev becuase of the 64bit problem
its not a sonicore bug either as creamware wrote the devs
and for all those devs to work in 64bit would need a rewrite of there code to work with 64bit or at least some type of bridge software like there is for 32bit vsti
to work on 64bit machines
but better would be a new sampler dev for 64bit not the sts range but something totaly new with no layer limitations for velocity with support for all formats available
32bit works fine why any body uses 64bit i really dont know
unless for games
you are the ginea pigs with 64bit os and will be until it matures say in 10years time
but by then mr bill gates would have brought out 4-5 newer versions of the same shit that wont run the stuff from before
and we will be on 128 bit by then
if it is not broken dont fix it
all the devs were written for 32bit sts5000 thats what 10 years old now thats older than kontakt 2
same for the sample osc in modular its getting on 10 years old but it still works perfectly in 32bit
dont blame the devs its the 64bit os thats the problem for both scope and xite users
jimmyv has been off loading his dev becuase of the 64bit problem
its not a sonicore bug either as creamware wrote the devs
and for all those devs to work in 64bit would need a rewrite of there code to work with 64bit or at least some type of bridge software like there is for 32bit vsti
to work on 64bit machines
but better would be a new sampler dev for 64bit not the sts range but something totaly new with no layer limitations for velocity with support for all formats available
Re: Piano for Scope
yeah i'm not on 64bit either and don't plan on getting it until i'm forced to. I might have to look at that Scope STS collection again that's a fairly decent sound thanks dante. I just recently loaded a whole stack of Akai disks on my hard drive for use with the STS that's why I don't have any space left Appreciate that bit in ScopeRise on how to do that....again thanks to dante!
Still have my CD3000 in the rack but it takes too long to load and I just don't have any time these days.
Dan
Still have my CD3000 in the rack but it takes too long to load and I just don't have any time these days.
Dan
Re: Piano for Scope
jhulk wrote: Better would be a new sampler dev for 64bit not the sts range but something totaly new with no layer limitations for velocity with support for all formats available
I would love the ability to use a Scope sampler with limitless RAM, and have VDAT record to RAM for realtime editing while monitoring....
WHo knows, if I get SDK by the 2020 I might learned how to build one....
Re: Piano for Scope
Maybe by then Modular X will have new parts that make it easier than doing it w/ SDK.
But even if you take all the low level DSP coding work out of developing a sampled instrument theres still a shite load of work to be done to say sample every key of a piano w/ all mic positions, velocities etc.
Wouldn't it be a full time gig for for those Quantum Leap dudes ?
Imagine sampling every Solaris preset at all keys, velocities and ribbon positions
But even if you take all the low level DSP coding work out of developing a sampled instrument theres still a shite load of work to be done to say sample every key of a piano w/ all mic positions, velocities etc.
Wouldn't it be a full time gig for for those Quantum Leap dudes ?
Imagine sampling every Solaris preset at all keys, velocities and ribbon positions