Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

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the19thbear
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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by the19thbear » Mon Oct 24, 2011 11:24 pm

thats true.
Try the luna instead!
you can see if it is a version 2 by the ULLI settings.
If it goes down to 3 or 6 ms (cant remember which), its a luna 2:)

thehe
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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 6:19 am

the19thbear wrote:thats true.
Try the luna instead!
you can see if it is a version 2 by the ULLI settings.
If it goes down to 3 or 6 ms (cant remember which), its a luna 2:)

i currently have a luna II installed.. ULLI goes down to 1ms in 96khz...

so - what do you think? the pulsar I slows down the complete system? I have 5.1 only booked onto the pulsar I...

what if i plug a Pulsar II SRB into the system? will it have the optimal performance or does the pulsar I slow down all cards?

... f***...

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the19thbear
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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by the19thbear » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:25 am

Hmmm i don't know. Do you have any 4.0 keys for the Luna you could install?

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by bosone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:40 am

i think the pulsar is slowing down all the PCI performances, no matter the other cards.
and the worst is that with the only luna the masterver test is limited by the 3 DSP

you should do the test with other cards... the optimum would be a 15 DSP scope.

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:47 am

the19thbear wrote:Hmmm i don't know. Do you have any 4.0 keys for the Luna you could install?
yes, but a x64-maschine with 16gb ram ;)

so i need 5.1

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:49 am

bosone wrote:i think the pulsar is slowing down all the PCI performances, no matter the other cards.
and the worst is that with the only luna the masterver test is limited by the 3 DSP

you should do the test with other cards... the optimum would be a 15 DSP scope.
i'll swap the pulsar1, the LunaII with expension box and the 5.1 keys with somebody against 4x scope professional with 5.1 and a a16 ultra, without additional costs :P

sorry guys,
i thought i made a good deal with NOT upgrading the luna instead of getting a pulsarI with update already done...

is there any possibility to "transfer the licence" to the luna or a pular II srb?

f*** ;)

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 7:54 am

I wrote Mr. Dressel from SonicCore...
Maybe he can confirm that situation and helps me out to get a good testing environment.

We all want a ROCK-SOLID solution for PCIe!

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by bosone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 8:15 am

i transferred the 5.1 keys to my pulsar 1 to the scope, so it can be made.
but i payed the fee...
maybe try to explain what you are doing so maybe you get the tranfser free or at least with a discount! :)
or ask planetZ to give 1-5 euro each to continue the development! :) (i woudl give you! :)

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by the19thbear » Fri Oct 28, 2011 9:49 am

Me to!

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:36 pm

bosone wrote:i transferred the 5.1 keys to my pulsar 1 to the scope, so it can be made.
but i payed the fee...
maybe try to explain what you are doing so maybe you get the tranfser free or at least with a discount! :)
or ask planetZ to give 1-5 euro each to continue the development! :) (i woudl give you! :)
wow guys... good to hear that you are willing to support me, you can help me - at least - with good deals for scope-boards ;)

so, bosone, one question:
what was the fee for transferring?

to all:
mr. dressler is informed about this project and helped me already a lot with some specifications and "where to buy"-things ;)
GOOD MAN! i think, he has a LOT OF WORK that will result in these support-delays...

back to the topic:
What do you really want beside the PCIe/Express-Card Board?

1. Enclosure:
For my testing I bought a REALLY cheap external enclosure were the board fits in, with a 220W server power supply (stabilized etc.) and with a big 120mm cooler in front to get the cards cool (here we can put a really silent cooler in!)...
The problem with our "2U-Rack Idea" is that the board has the connectors like on a normal mainboard - maybe we can find a riser-solution here, but i'm not sure if it's good to lengthen a pci-bus with cables ;)
We can get a 4-6U Rack-Enclosure to put the board on the right side, but this will be the overkill - totally wasting space.
The next problem is, that the gap between pci-bus-connectors is standarized... The board I got from the chinese has 4 of them like on a normal mainboard (as i said above)... this will prevent the board from beeing extended by, for example, a z-link/adat-expension...

to get this complete build cheap, i have to develop a "pci lengthening piece", so that we are able to place the pci-slots whereever we want....

what's you opinion to that?
do you really need a 2U-Rack or will be a "external cubic-like case" okay?

for completeness:
there are two versions of this case out there - one with FULL LENGTH PCI and one with "normal"... you need the full-length version for SCOPE PROFESSIONAL, the normal version will fit wonderful for luna&pulsar...

2. Connectors:
Mr. Dressler confirmed, that the software-maximum for SCOPE will be 4 boards, so we can throw away our "external STDM-bus"-idea and focus on some things else...

my ideas:
if we develop a special case for the boards, we can completely put them into (without external access) and build up BEAUTIFUL connectors to the outside...
for example:
i hate the cable-whips of pulsar.. they are really good quality but there's something hanging around behind the pc which just extremely make hitches...
so - what if we can build a case with wonderful neutrik-connectors CUSTOMIZED TO YOUR SETUP?

maybe you can send your cards in, we can built up the system, wire the connectors etc, test it and send it back or isn't that an option?

(truncated because of http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30442)

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Fri Oct 28, 2011 1:38 pm

3. Widgets:
what about special passive card-coolers for the scope-boards? i measured temperature under heavy DSP-load - the airflow of one big 120mm cooler is not enough to cool the cards below 40 (degrees celsius - thank's to http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=30442) - not very good... a passive cooler could work here!
for that, you have to send in the cards when we got a supplier for the special-dimension coolers (see 2.)

what about temperature-LCD-display for each DSP? (nice widget ;) !)

4. Performance:
I got 7 Masterverb stable on LunaII+PulsarI... Same result as in an ABIT AN8 32X, ABIT AN78GS and TYAN THUNDER...,
but I can't test more - I'm think to buy a PulsarII SRB for about 200 bucks (EUROS) - but I'm a student - initially i only wanted a good I/O and routing-solution... no hardcore dsp-power...
If i can be sure to get the cards away any day (if i need money) i can buy the SRB...

What's your oppinion? How much is the fish on PCIe/ExpressCard LunaII+PulsarI+PulsarSRB with 5.1?

5. Specifications from SonicCore:
I asked Mr. Dressler for the Z-Link-Specification.. he says that "it maybe get available but not for now"... so the Z-Link to MADI ideas are to throw away into a big bin of good ideas...
Next I asked for a SDK to provide (for example) a S/P-DIF AC-3 Output for testing Dolby mixes with normal home-audio equipment... Same here, i will become available, but not now and when i comes, it will require a dongle (have to pay for it then... :-( )

I don't trust to ask him again for a specification of S/TDM for example, but a great thing would be, if we can put a little TFT-Screen into the box to see the DSP loads etc. etc....

it would be wonderful if you share your thoughts about that with me - i have to make some decisions now ;)

greetings,
robin

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dante
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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by dante » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:27 pm

Its a great idea if it gets off the ground I'd like to cover it in ScopeRise.

FYI I get 12 materverbs on 3 x PCI cards (ASUS PK5E)
Subscribe to ScopeRise - Scope Digital Audio webzine by sending an email to scoperise@hitfoundry.com - put 'subscribe' as the topic. Latest issue viewable at www.hitfoundry.com

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by bosone » Fri Oct 28, 2011 2:43 pm

thehe wrote: so, bosone, one question:
what was the fee for transferring?
don't remember but i think in the 70-80 € range.

What do you really want beside the PCIe/Express-Card Board?
actually, nothing!
as i suggested, my first aim is low price... so the idea could be to arrange the connection board / PCB you will produce with holes to fit in a standard PC case, so you already have an enclosure easily available. you just take an old case and insert the boards (yours and S|C ones).
you can also use an old PC power supply, provided that you will be able to turn on in some way before or during the startup of your main computer...

i hate the cable-whips of pulsar.. they are really good quality but there's something hanging around behind the pc which just extremely make hitches...
so - what if we can build a case with wonderful neutrik-connectors CUSTOMIZED TO YOUR SETUP?
why not!
someone could use them!
maybe you can send your cards in, we can built up the system, wire the connectors etc, test it and send it back or isn't that an option?
mmmhhh... you have to stop the studio activity... not suitable for pros, maybe, and too expensive (2x shipping costs) for hobbysts
[/quote]
what about special passive card-coolers for the scope-boards? i measured temperature under heavy DSP-load
T has never been a problem for S|C boards
4. Performance:
I got 7 Masterverb stable on LunaII+PulsarI... Same result as in an ABIT AN8 32X, ABIT AN78GS and TYAN THUNDER...,
What's your oppinion? How much is the fish on PCIe/ExpressCard LunaII+PulsarI+PulsarSRB with 5.1?
that's a good and standard result considering the pulsar 1. i had the same on my old ASUS p4c800-e deluxe, one of the best system for S|C. i don't think you will go beyond this with pulsar 1. you definitely have to test the system with a 15 DSP board or a pulsar 2+luna
Next I asked for a SDK to provide (for example) a S/P-DIF AC-3 Output for testing Dolby mixes with normal home-audio equipment... Same here, i will become available, but not now and when i comes, it will require a dongle (have to pay for it then... )
you can ask someone to do this for you, i think!

have a good work! :)

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by the19thbear » Fri Oct 28, 2011 10:33 pm

keep in mind to not make it only for scope cards. UAD, and pro tools cards could be used in your box as well:) (another income source)
ABout the cable whip problem:
Maybe it could be solved like this:
Image


that way, you dont need to have the actual cards anywhere near the back of the box, you just need extender cables.
-i dont think the whole "sending in for soldering " is a good idea, i wouldnt do it because of the posibilly of loosing my card in the mail, and i would have to stop doing any audio work in the same period.

-And as said before, heat was never a problem for scope cards. so i dont think we really need an extra cooler, unless it would be dirt cheap!
-i think a 2 unit rack box is essential for a portable solution. there is *no way* i would carry around an extra computer case along with my laptop if i wanted to do any field recording/editing.
So i think a pci riser/angle converter is essential for the 2 unit box. And i dont think it would add any problems to you setup, its like maybe 2 extra centimeters..
I personally would be happy with a 2 card solution..

But most of all: It has to be CHEAP to compete with virtuvia/magma. ANd as i have said before, maybe you could do a version with all the cool things like temperature measurement etc on an expensive box, and then a cheap box that just has the case/cables.
Or even: A diy solution. We buy a kit from you (with/without box) and put everything together ourselves. - i could actually see that happening. i think many of the scope users are "play around with computers" kind of poeple, and if i could save money and have extra fun/learn new stuff, i would love a DIY solution!
So maybe 3 versions:expensive, normal and diy that would allow any combination of expensive/normal. with/without case (that way you could put the whole thing into an existing PC case if you really wanted to save money)


Good luck!

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by HUROLURA » Sat Oct 29, 2011 1:13 am

PCI Risers just work without in trouble here (in my TranquilPC based unit for example).

Regarding the Temp, I didn't add any cooler but the passive silent one that is built in the unit is for the main CPU.

Regarding the whiper cables, a conversion harness could be a smart solution, but be cautious with cost.

Regarding the size of the case, I assume the rack size would be the easiest to integrate for many of us.

Regarding the "widgets": I do not think you could have any hints about the DSP use from the STDM connection. You have to get it from the scope system so maybe easier to integrate if even possible so maybe a good addition to any host case.

For testing purpose you should definetely get a 14/15 DSP card as this would also give you the possibly to get the SDK...

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by the19thbear » Tue Nov 01, 2011 4:19 am

here is a cheap 15 dsp card for sale if you need one thehe!
http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php ... 39#p278639

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:49 pm

Good news guys...

I got in contact with the company EXSYS, who just imports the china boards and got a cheap solution:

For sure you can buy the products somewhere else but do not forget, that now I am distributor and will order those for you with prepayment (sure with correct invoice etc., if you have a valid Ust-ID/VAT-ID for EU, maybe VAT-free!)
(You will support further enhancements ;-))

Expension Boxes with (very loud - needs to be replaced) cooler and 220W-power supply [PCI-e Card not included]:

Image
long version, 31cm inner/40cm out: 279EUR plus shipping

Image
short version, 31cm inner/40cm out: 249EUR plus shipping


Image
Host-Board (with ATX ADAPTER TO FIT IN NORMAL PC CASE!!!),
provides 4 PCI from PCIe, ExpressCard or PCI Slot: 199EUR plus shipping


Host Boards:
PCI (not PCIe!) Host-Board - 49EUR plus shipping
PCIexpress Host-Board (incl. half-height adapter [Server or HTPC-Cases]) - 39EUR plus shipping
ExpressCard Host-Board (with 1m cable) - 39EUR plus shipping
ExpressCard Host-Board (with pluggable 2m cable) - 55EUR plus shipping

Custom modding and services:
Custom built S/TDM-cable with ferrite core (magnetic core) for up to 4 card connections - 10-20EUR plus shipping
(if your card setup differs pulsar one, luna II or [hopefully] scope sp, you have to provide correct lenghts or just send the cards in for a couple of days)

Custom 120mm cooler (low noise) with additional temperature regulation board - 20EUR plus shipping

If you want to get a combination of the products, shipping costs will be combined - for sure!


I can't say a lot to the performance - as you now, 7 Masterverbs with a pulsar I based setup...
Hopefully I will get in the next days a lot of horsepowers from a very helpful and nice guy...
But it works like a charm in general!

One problem:
It's NOT hotpluggable... You have to power on the box and then boot up your PC/Laptop because it will require the BIOS init process to recognize the cards...

So...
just to make it clear - this is "status quo" because the costs are much lower than our self-developed solution!
we are investigating a custom rack-unit development for the scope system...
maybe possible with some custom risers and the solution (see at top)...

Greetings,
Robin

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Thu Nov 03, 2011 8:53 pm

Addtional meta-information:
I got the box working with a good 15meter cable between box and computer - how is that? ;)
after some testing, i will sell the cable, too...

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by thehe » Thu Nov 03, 2011 9:13 pm

the19thbear wrote:keep in mind to not make it only for scope cards. UAD, and pro tools cards could be used in your box as well:) (another income source)
Come on... pro tools? UAD? RME?... they have to pay the FULL PENALTY OF MAGMA! :-)
the19thbear wrote:ABout the cable whip problem:
Maybe it could be solved like this:
Image
This is EXACTLY what's on my mind... beautiful drawing ;) But it's totally custom? if you have a luna and maybe 3 pulsar I you'll have:

2x Midi In/Out
1x Midi-Thru
1x S/P-DIF I/O
1x AES/EBU I/O
1x Analog balanced I/O
1x Analog unbalanced I/O
1x Z-Link (Firewire)

... not very handy?! you can build this bunch of things only very "small and simple" if you'll send the cards in.. the lengths etc must be good...
Another problem:
Where to get this Pulsar-Break-Out-Connector!? It looks very "it was already custom at the 1990s" (like the S/TDMs) :)

that way, you dont need to have the actual cards anywhere near the back of the box, you just need extender cables.
-i dont think the whole "sending in for soldering " is a good idea, i wouldnt do it because of the posibilly of loosing my card in the mail, and i would have to stop doing any audio work in the same period.
not sending in for soldering - sending in to built the adapters from card-connectors to backplane...
I am not willing to solder on the cards!!!
-And as said before, heat was never a problem for scope cards. so i dont think we really need an extra cooler, unless it would be dirt cheap!
After a couple of days i can't agree with you! the box totally heats up - the power-supply and 2-4 cards WITHOUT any airflow will kill them...
the solution i posted above only has ONE loud 120mm cooler which will be okay BUT it's loud.. i replaced it with a low noise fan and temperature controlling, but the cards are heating up... you NEED this cooler...
-i think a 2 unit rack box is essential for a portable solution. there is *no way* i would carry around an extra computer case along with my laptop if i wanted to do any field recording/editing.
i think the boxes (see above) are okay for transporting - you can put it in a rack, too, but they don't LOOK like what i want..
maybe a beautiful aluminum rack with "parker computer manufactory" (parker is my lastname) engraved? ;)...
So i think a pci riser/angle converter is essential for the 2 unit box. And i dont think it would add any problems to you setup, its like maybe 2 extra centimeters..
I personally would be happy with a 2 card solution..
I think it's no real problem to enlength it with 2-4 cm, but in the ultimate solution we need a lot more!
my dream-case would be:
2-4U, 4 cards with each one expansion-slot --> 8 Slots, 4x PCI... 2-3 vertically aligned.. 2-4 rows of cards horizontally...

have to see...

Special for you:
Maybe i can get for you a 2 PCI-Board from the vendor!? I can figure it out if you want...
But most of all: It has to be CHEAP to compete with virtuvia/magma. ANd as i have said before, maybe you could do a version with all the cool things like temperature measurement etc on an expensive box, and then a cheap box that just has the case/cables.
I think about 300EUR is a good deal?
Or even: A diy solution. We buy a kit from you (with/without box) and put everything together ourselves. - i could actually see that happening. i think many of the scope users are "play around with computers" kind of poeple, and if i could save money and have extra fun/learn new stuff, i would love a DIY solution!
see above :)
So maybe 3 versions:expensive, normal and diy that would allow any combination of expensive/normal. with/without case (that way you could put the whole thing into an existing PC case if you really wanted to save money)
Okay, the damn easy and DIY-solution are online above...
The cool things are following? :)
Good luck!
Thank you ;)

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Re: Question: Do you want 4x scope on ExpressCard/PCIe?

Post by HUROLURA » Thu Nov 03, 2011 11:14 pm

Nice alternative to magma actually ...

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