Some hints as to XTC mode

[8-Bit]

On 2005-01-27 21:15, Faxi Nadu wrote:
hey
could someone explain why the merge and direct mix devices are used?
thanks

Yeh.. I'd like to know too.. What is MERGE for.. and why is the directmix thing there???

[devastate]

merge is to send an asio loop to your sequencing program. So you can record whats coming out of your program, internally in real time, back onto an audio channel for your mix or whatever.

the direct mix box is to monitor your synths etc, latency free, i don't use it myself but it's there if you need it

[flips]

Hi!
<font size=-1>I followed the example in the beginning of this thread and the image posted on 2003-07-15 15:37 by at0m.</font>

I have this XTCProject.pro file in the App/XTCApp directory:


I realize this is indeed an old thread. I have had no problems getting XTC mode to work, as in getting sound. Ableton Live 5 recognizes the soundcard and everything. But I never no plugins (synths etc.) to work in this mode. I never got any response on this issue from Creamware support, but now I found this forum and this thread.

The only module I find initially, is "VZRecording", but it doesn't work and has the message: "Sampler not found". I have installed the OP-8 demo as well, at that module shows up, but no sound. I see no others synths, effects or anything, but the DLL's and stuff is all in place, located in c:/Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins/XTC

Any ideas, anyone?

--
flips
<font size=-1>And by the way: Nice forum! I'm glad I found this place ...</font>


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: flips on 2006-03-02 08:01 ]</font>

[flips]

Today I wrote:
The only module I find initially, is "VZRecording", but it doesn't work and has the message: "Sampler not found". (...) I see no others synths, effects or anything, but the DLL's and stuff is all in place, located in c:/Program Files/Steinberg/VstPlugins/XTC

After a while I tried adding just the XTC folder to Live's search path. And all of a sudden it started discovering XTC modules. Yay! That hasn't worked before, so I guess my new project file works better than the default then. I also changed path back to the same folder as before, and it still works.

I had to add the intBlkSize to the ini file according to the orginal post by GonZoft and then everything (at least so far) has run smoothly.
Gee! Thanks guys!

--
flips

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: flips on 2006-03-02 08:43 ]</font>

[Chisel]

I've been using Scope in XTC mode with Ableton Live 5 for awhile now. Everything works great except for one minor issue: Everytime I launch Live, the Creamware MIDI port is greyed out and is unusable until I go into the Audio options and re-scan the MIDI.

Peace /
Chisel

[voidar]

This happens to me too when launching Tracktion. At sais it is unable to open midi-device at first, but works when I do it manualy.

I guess it's some bug.

[Chisel]

I did some rearranging of my XTCproject last night and got rid of the Merge module and the DirectPlayMixerContainer module. Everything still works fine. Even though these modules have been described here numerous times in the past, I still have no idea what they're used for. Are they legacy modules that aren't required anymore? Why do I need a merge between my ASIO source and ASIO dest? I have no problems bouncing tracks without it. Why do I need a DirectPlayMixerContainer between my ASIO source and Pulsar monitoring destination? I can monitor just fine without it. Are these specific to Cubase? I'm using Ableton Live and I don't have any issues with playback or recording without these two modules. Also, what Scope manual describes these modules? I went through all of the pdfs I have and none of them mention it (unless I overlooked it).

Peace /
Chisel

[voidar]

It's sort of a mystery really.

Some believe Merge is just for nameing the output/inputs.

"Play"-module might be for synths, to play in real-time. if you load a XTC synth you will see they have this "Direct"-button. If you press it you're supposed to hear the synths comming from this module, virtually latency free.

Anyway, so you manage to bounce still? How do you set that up?

I tried running my mix through a ADAT light-cable loop, which worked fine.

BTW, are your bounces -3dB lower than what you would expect?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: voidar on 2006-04-19 08:58 ]</font>

[Chisel]

On 2006-04-19 08:51, voidar wrote:
Anyway, so you manage to bounce still? How do you set that up?

Hey voidar,

Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense to me now. I still don't see the use for it, but it makes sense.

I'll have to upload a pic of my XTCproject later. Basically, I have ASIO source 1/2 routed to my ADAT dest which is physically connected to my studio monitors. ASIO source 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, and 9/10 are routed directly to ASIO dest 3/4, 5/6, 7/8, and 9/10, respectively. This gives me four tracks for submixes. ADAT A/B source and Analog source are routed to the ASIO dest starting at 11. Of course the Pulsar MIDI source is routed to the Seq MIDI dest and visa versa.

So let's say I want to bounce the first three tracks to track four. I set the outputs of the first three tracks in Live to Ext. Out 3/4 and set the input of track four in Live to Ext. In 3/4. Now I have the audio of the first three tracks playing on Track 4! If I want to hear a track through the main mix, I set the output to 1/2. It's as simple as that.

It was like a light bulb went on over my head last night. It finally clicked. I don't see the need to have every track routed out of Live into a separate Ext. output. I just route them all to 1/2 and it sounds exactly the same to me as if I routed them all to separate outputs and then into a "switch it". I don't hear a different in sound quality or level. I have to spend more time with it, but I think this is the best solution for me.

Peace /
Chisel

[Chisel]

Well, just when I thought I had everything worked out, I got thrown another wrench. I can pan a track in Live if I send it straight to the monitors. For some reason, if I send it to a sub-mix -- and it doesn't matter if it's a SFP sub-mix or a Live sub-mix -- I lose the pan and it plays centered! I can't figure out why it's doing this. Any ideas from the experts?

Thanks,
Chisel

[voidar]

Sounds like a Live-"feature". But are you sure you have set up the busses as stereo within live?

In XTC-mode I often find it better to load a MultiFX rack and loading plugins there. I can't load a separate P100 and a A100 in the regular way because of "DSP exhaustion", but it works inside the MultiFX, or in their respective MultiFX's.

A better approach however would be to load a Channel device (found in mixers). You will get volume and pan functions here, aswell as two inserts (which can be expanded by MultiFX devices).
The reason I mention this is that you could use the Channel for panning and volume instead of the built-in Live ones. I think that can solve this Live-quirk.

Copy the channel.dev to someplace in the DevicesXTC folder.
Create a channel.dll by copy-renaming a <stereo>.dll file within your VST-folder.
You probably know this already, but it needs to be a .dll with stereo ability.

[Chisel]

On 2006-04-20 07:07, voidar wrote:
Sounds like a Live-"feature". But are you sure you have set up the busses as stereo within live?

Yes. It still happens if I route directly in Live, so you're probably right that it's a Live "feature".

On 2006-04-20 07:07, voidar wrote:
In XTC-mode I often find it better to load a MultiFX rack and loading plugins there. I can't load a separate P100 and a A100 in the regular way because of "DSP exhaustion", but it works inside the MultiFX, or in their respective MultiFX's.

I'll have to try this out. So, do you load a MultiFX module into each of your tracks separately? Maybe this will solve my 'Live can't find Compressor M' issue. How come I can load the Compressor into a Live track just fine, but when I come back to the project later (after closing and opening Live) it complains that it can't find the plug-in when I load the project! It doesn't make any sense because it's available and I can easily drag it back into the project and delete the one that is greyed-out. Oddly enough it only happens with the Compressor plug-ins so far. Reverb is fine.

On 2006-04-20 07:07, voidar wrote:
A better approach however would be to load a Channel device (found in mixers). You will get volume and pan functions here, aswell as two inserts (which can be expanded by MultiFX devices).

I'll have to try that. Although, at this point the cons of using XTC seem to outweight the pros -- once again. I switched back to XTC mode because I got my BCF2000 working with Live in Mackie emulation mode. I'm starting to think that this emulation mode is more of a novelty and I may just end up going back to SFP mode where I control the STM2448 with my BCF2000 in its native mode. The only problem with this is that I seem to only be able to map the faders, mutes, and solos. Although it looks like I should be able to map the channel selects and other master panel functions, they don't seem to save properly. I'll have to do some searching here to see what others say about controlling the STM2448 with MIDI.

Thanks again for all your help. I'm not giving up completely. The greatest thing about Creamware is that I can switch between SFP and XTC mode with no hassle. It just interrupts the workflow sometimes. Like I mentioned here before, it's not out of the question to use both modes -- XTC for the composing phase and SFP for the mixing phase. It's just that lately, I've been producing simple beats with mostly outboard gear and the pros of XTC mode (i.e. seamless parameter control of synths) is becoming less important than one I composed Trance.

Peace /
Chisel

[voidar]

I'll have to try this out. So, do you load a MultiFX module into each of your tracks separately? Maybe this will solve my 'Live can't find Compressor M' issue

That is what I started with, yes. But next time I will probably replace them with a Channel module. I use Tracktion 2 you see, and T2 uses "filters" for even vol/pan controll. It is easy to just swap it with a Channel device. Great think is that latency won't build up, and less conversions are needed.
There are some restrictions like, I won't be able to use sends from within a Channel. However, sid-chaining seems to work.

It's almost like having SFP inside your application ..

I don't know why you have that compressor loading problem.

I'll have to try that. Although, at this point the cons of using XTC seem to outweight the pros -- once again. I switched back to XTC mode because I got my BCF2000 working with Live in Mackie emulation mode. I'm starting to think that this emulation mode is more of a novelty and I may just end up going back to SFP mode where I control the STM2448 with my BCF2000 in its native mode. The only problem with this is that I seem to only be able to map the faders, mutes, and solos. Although it looks like I should be able to map the channel selects and other master panel functions, they don't seem to save properly. I'll have to do some searching here to see what others say about controlling the STM2448 with MIDI.

Big thing with XTC is that it uses VST-automation instead of MIDI-CC. However, with a Channel i.e. you will only be able to automate the first instance - volume, pan, mute etc. - and not insert parameters.
Those you have to animate via MIDI-CC.

As you say, XTC is a great composition tool, and I feel workflow is better in XTC than with SFP.
Bouncing down a XTC composition and mixing through SFP is also a good deal.

[Chisel]

I'm very happy to report that I got XTC mode working last night. It turns out that my VSTplugins XTC folder and my SFP XTCDevices folder weren't in sync. After spending some time syncing the two together, I no longer get the Compressor load error. Funny enough, as a side effect of fixing these folders, I no longer have an issue with panning individual tracks of a sub-mix! I can't explain why it started working. I didn't change anything except for syncing the XTC device folders. Anyway, I'm extremely thrilled with being able to work in XTC mode and in Ableton Live. The DSP load is *WAY* lower in XTC mode than in SFP mode probably because of the absence of the mixer in XTC. I'm working on a mix that has about 30 tracks (10 just for vocal) and two sub-mixes. I loaded several XTC effects onto tracks and haven't come close to my 6 DSP max. Also, the CPU is only taking about a 20-30% hit. I'm ecstatic! I'll be sure to post the link to my song when it's finished.

Peace /
Chisel

[Chisel]

It gets even better. I was looking through the Ableton Live Preferences and discovered the Clock Source setting was actually set to Master! I changed this to Slave to S/PDIF and now my S/PDIF works!! I think that takes care of everything except for the re-scan midi bug. That's not really a big deal though. The pros of XTC definitely outway the cons for sure!

Peace /
Chisel

[fraz]

Thanks for this...... ..............have carried out most of these. The CSET file on my PC did not have a ".ini" after the "cset" bit - is it necessary to have this?

[jksuperstar]

maybe your PC folder view doesn't have the file extension visible? (ie - hidden for known types)

[the19thbear]

Is called ini wether you can see it or not:)