The Michel Jackson Trick using feedback on drums .

[niceboy]

This is very easy if you take it slowly.

http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=31672

Since we learned this from people around Michel Jackson working with them for years ,

we call this the Michel Jackson Trick then.

Its only plugins on the master in the STM 2448 mixer.

We use three groups , using only stereo channels going to AUX mono out,

Group 1 : AUX 1 and Aux 2 is Going to mixdown stereo in through the Returning Channels.

Group 2: Aux 3 and Aux 4 is both Snare and Toms going into Group 1

Group 3: AUX 5 and Aux 6 is also both Snare and Toms into Group 1

Group 1

AUX 1 and Aux 2 is channel 1,2,3 and 4 , channel 2 and 3 is doing feedback

In this group we put Bassdrum , OH and AMB.

All channels is having high cut eq on 3000 hz as shown in the pic with channel 9,

exept incoming channel 1 and 4 with Bassdrum , OH and AMB .

incoming Snare and Toms in Group 2 and Group 3 is both having high cut eq on 3000 hz .

The high cut on the feedback channels is the needed cut off in order to have any feedback at all .

Group 2

AUX 3 and AUX 4 is channel 5 and 6 doing feedback, going in with Snare from channel 9 and 10.

In this group is only Snare.

Group 3

AUX 5 and AUX 6 is channel 7 and 8 , going in with Toms from channel 11 , and 12.

Sound example is work in progress , and is just a sound example to prove that its working .

https://soundcloud.com/bjorn-olofsson/toms-for-m-j

[wayne]

This is very easy if you take it slowly.

Stop posting this rubbish on the Z.

[the19thbear]

As Said many times before here: the mixers add latency and doing feedback that way will only result in phasing/comb filtering. Nothing good.

[niceboy]

As Said many times before here: the mixers add latency and doing feedback that way will only result in phasing/comb filtering. Nothing good.

You think so , because you havn't tried it.
Drums is very easy when using no plugins in the channels.
Voice is more tricky ,when using plugins in the feedback channel .
Then you need to use the DC filter ,in order to get signal ,
thats probarbly the phasing you are talking about.
On analog gear we use Capasitors to do that.
On drums as described here with no plugins only with high cut on 3000 hz,
there is only clean Amp coming out.
The high cut is very important though , otherwise you will get unwanted positiv feedback.
The Aux is made to add both left and right stereo channel into one Aux mono.
Out comes doubble volyme and its no difference with a feedback signal.
About extra Latency ,its only very minimal on the feedback signal .
Its less than half a millisecond .
Dante showed with the Check plugin and its 15 Samples and 32 Samples is 1 millisecond .
In terms of tones it makes no difference with Zero Latency.
Tones are longer than 1 millisecond.
Dante said though that DAS has a mixer with AUX , that has Zero Latency.
Audio riding on electrical signals does not create extra Latency ,
when putted into a circuit.
Maybe Dante can tell which DAS mixer that is with no latency.
I am interested.
If so , I will prove to you ,
by testing a Demo from DAS , that it will work in the same way.
The Audio signals going inside Digital Gear is actually analog,
because they ride on electrical signals.
Bear

[Mr Arkadin]

This may solve any issues with organ sounds:

http://www.wiretotheear.com/2013/01/11/feedback-organ/

[niceboy]

This may solve any issues with organ sounds:

http://www.wiretotheear.com/2013/01/11/feedback-organ/

Thanks for showing and I will look into it later.
Its good that you showed the pic ,because all Amps are made of feedback.
This is not a problem.
We do mastering also ,so now we just showed this pic for drummix.
As well as in Solaris , Dawman showed pic for drummix with feedback before.
I then will say you can easily do multiple feedback like in Solaris ,
on the STM also.
Just let Group 3 go into both Group 1 and Group 2.
You might need to doubble track the bassdrum then,
and its not needed for us , with three consecutive + paralell feedback,
because some songs need doubble tracking of the bassdrum in anyway ,
because our drummer is very relaxed on his feet.
We use all channels on full though , so try what ever you want.
Its used inside Hammond Organs also , but now pipe organ
This thread is about drums and can be used on Organ of course .
This is controversial because all Pro Tools HD want to stop us.
We have no interest in Venue or SSL Boards,
We use the STM mixers
Bear

[dante]

As Said many times before here: the mixers add latency and doing feedback that way will only result in phasing/comb filtering. Nothing good.

I agree with this but also that I have not seen or heard any application of feedback in Scope that cant be done with other, easier means, whether latency is involved or not. Latency just causes a comb filter and no latency (variations of which you can do by doubling a track in Cubase) just increases the volume.

Niceboy, you can contact Eric from DAS about his XITED range of mixers which have no latency on AUX.

Also, as a suggestion (and apologies for going off your topic), why don't you have one master post about Feedback (with links to all your lessons and reduced picture sizes) and maybe bounce it once a month. Do this instead of multiple posting about feedback and adding feedback comments to unrelated threads.

Just a suggestion. I bounce one topic about ScopeRise every month or two and no-one has complained because its not in their face every ten seconds.

[Eanna]

Far simpler Scope project images too.. Very difficult to see what's going on in a complex routing window - a tangle of wires is no aid to anyone's understanding.
Simpler descriptions too - not just what's in place, but why. Follow the signal from Mic to Monitor...

Please.

[niceboy]

To Dante
This is mainly for advanced users of MADI to ADAT setups
I understand your point ,and I misunderstood you said the whole mixer had Zero Latency,
but now its only Aux.
Just tell me which mixer and its good only on AUX ,
then its no difference between input. and feedback latency.
About having different opinions of how this sounds obviosly without trying it,
I have the right to tell you because my ears is telling me I am right.
If you want to write about it in your news paper is up to you.
I do this for the young people that already have done it here,
and found it great.
Its also clear what I said about Pro Tools HD to MRArkadin ,
that some people have more interest in Venue Boards than the STM mixers.
Then I made my self clear that we dont want that.
If you dont have the mixers name or number ,forget it then.
I dont have to prove anything.
This is obviously a turning point , and some people will use this.
Bear

[dante]

To Dante
This is mainly for advanced users of MADI to ADAT setups
I understand your point ,and I misunderstood you said the whole mixer had Zero Latency,
but now its only Aux.
Just tell me which mixer and its good only on AUX ,
then its no difference between input. and feedback latency.Bear

DAS ScopeRise mixer, featured here under 'Scope Setup' tab, I believe is a derivative of the DAS XITED mixer which has some Mackie control compatibility :

http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_08/mh_mast.htm

Its not necessarily just 'only' latency free on aux, I think from memory there's no latency on main outs either.

Again, contact DAS for more detail.

[niceboy]

Thanks it looks great I will try to find Erics e - mail adress somewhere here.
It might be very important since theire RMX 160 is so extreemly good,
we use it both on Snare and Toms.
Bear

[JoPo]

Feedback sounds like you've got your head (and your ears because they are together stuck ) under a pillow ! https://soundcloud.com/bjorn-olofsson/toms-for-m-j

All this gas factory for that ?

[niceboy]

Feedback sounds like you've got your head (and your ears because they are together stuck ) under a pillow ! https://soundcloud.com/bjorn-olofsson/toms-for-m-j

All this gas factory for that ?

Ok your drummix is good for what you do there,
but our is for hard rock and need much more dark Snare ,
and the Bottom of the Bassdrum that your mix is without
Thank you.
Bear

[JoPo]

Dark, dark, dark...

[niceboy]

Dark dark dark...

Yes dark and the Amps and extra Reverb is needed all you can get.
Bear

[jhulk]

feed back techniques

are used by running a signal from a mixer to an amp then to a speaker

then recording the output of the speaker by a microphone

the original signal is not used but the feedback signal

we used todo this all the time and i still use this technique

for sub bass sounds with a 2 track analog mastering tape machine for tape saturation

but because scope is done in dsp there is no need to do this

as it can be done by dsp algorithms

or using the dynatube plug in that can also do this with in the dsp engine

the way your doing it is going to cause problems with phase

and whats happening with your drums is phase cancellation this happens when 2 phase are aligned and cancel each other out leaving a hole in that frequencies range

if your going todo it you need to set the drum tack to its own output separate from the mixer sum output so that when you do feed back only the feedback signal is feed to the master outputs and not both otherwise your going to get the latency return caused by the latency of the dsp device your using for the feed back signal with the original signal

which will cause the problems of the muffled sound you are getting

go and learn about mixing and mastering and about frequency cancellation first and the theory behind it

before messing around trying to do something that you obviously no nothing about

[JoPo]

Are really Michael Jackson drums sounding like this ? I guess I must buy new ears.

[jhulk]

Micheal jackson only sang

he did not play any instruments

and he did not even write half of the songs he sang

but could he sing and dance

he had lots of good session players that did all the drums and and synth playing

i have one of the dx7 players dx7 bad tour fm library that was used

for that tour

he's not a drummer he's a singer and a dead one at that

no more from that great performer

but i think if some one did niceboys technique on his vocal or backing tracks would of been shown the door very quickly

[niceboy]

We have been doing this for twenty five years in analog gear,
and are not interested in playing games with people,
We know what we are doing , and our purpose is to help not to make fight.
There was some sound engineres involved yes ,mixing drums and Voice for Aretha Franklin also and many others.
This is for advanced users only
Bear

[Mr Arkadin]

Funny how I can actually hear the drums in Michael Jackson's recordings but just a muffled 'whoompf' in yours.