Hi there!!!
well im on trance music creation and i would like to switch some ideas how to make a good bass for the kick drum and bass lines..
what pulsar devices do u use??? which filters / delay do u use????
Bass Lines and Bass
-
kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
This could get kind of vague, but here's my two cents.
First of, you'd definitely want to add some subharmonics to give your basses that air filling effect. It literally makes the bass fill the air. Try Celmo's subbass. That's my favorite. But, you can also pass the signal through a highpass with high Q (so it sort of self oscillates) and then set the frequency so the self oscilating sound compliments your kick. This trick won't work for bass lines tho, cuz it's fixed frequency. For bass lines you might want to make the frequency follow the keys so essencially, you have a suboctave sin wave of some sort.
Then, another trick would be to let the bass reverberate a bit before it shoots out the speaker. This is because low frequency waves require some distance for it to finish a cycle. Especially for subbass (0-20hz or so), it takes around 2 meters for it to be of any use. So, in order to compensate for that, you'd let the bass reverberate a bit so the reflected waves are at different phases. When you reverberate, you'd want to make sure that only the low, and I mean extremely low frequencies get reverbed. Mix that in just about enough, and you'd get more woof at closer distances. Don't over do it tho, just a room reverb with a short reverb time should be enough.
There's also a question of how the other sounds interact with the bass/subbass, which usually points at it's counterpart.. the ultra highs. You'd want to be a bit more generous with the ultra highs than usual cuz these often help in bringing out the ultra lows. It's a trick of psycho acoustics.. But you'll have to experiment. Sometimes this can be done with EQ, sometimes it has to be done with a multicomp. There's no recipe for this part so it's a question of trial and error. Also, as a general guideline, the more subbass you have, the less mid bass. (200-400) It helps to keep fidelity.
Lastly, about keeping the kick and bassline in good order, you'll have to prioritize, meaning you have to make up your mind which one is lower. Since it's very easy for low frequencies to cause phase cancellations, strange hums, or just simply screw up the mix, it's always a good idea to keep them at a good distance. It really depends on the tune, but if you applied subbass to the kicks, usually you'd want to leave the bass line to just eq or a little overdrive to saturate it. (or the other way around)
Oh yeah, and before I forget, about compressing bass drums.. I guess many people know this, but for those who have just started using comps.. Let your bass drums breath. By this I mean you have to give it enough attack time so the lower frequencies can finish their cycle. It's usually around 80-120ms or so, each kick is different.. but the point is, if you squash it too early, you'll end up with only higher frequencies. So remember to give it enough attack time. If you just want to bring out the higher frequencies, cut the attack low (30ms or so), and turn the ratio lower. You don't want too much of that snapping sound that usually simply overloads the mix. Not sure if this applies everywhere, but it's a general guideline that I use. If you want to limit the kick signal, instead of using a limiter, overdrive it just a little. Sounds much more smoother most of the time.
Hmm... is that it? Anyway, I think that's all the "general" tips I can think of.. anyone else have any ideas? Cuz maybe some of these methods are a bit on the conventional side..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-05-01 06:50 ]</font>
First of, you'd definitely want to add some subharmonics to give your basses that air filling effect. It literally makes the bass fill the air. Try Celmo's subbass. That's my favorite. But, you can also pass the signal through a highpass with high Q (so it sort of self oscillates) and then set the frequency so the self oscilating sound compliments your kick. This trick won't work for bass lines tho, cuz it's fixed frequency. For bass lines you might want to make the frequency follow the keys so essencially, you have a suboctave sin wave of some sort.
Then, another trick would be to let the bass reverberate a bit before it shoots out the speaker. This is because low frequency waves require some distance for it to finish a cycle. Especially for subbass (0-20hz or so), it takes around 2 meters for it to be of any use. So, in order to compensate for that, you'd let the bass reverberate a bit so the reflected waves are at different phases. When you reverberate, you'd want to make sure that only the low, and I mean extremely low frequencies get reverbed. Mix that in just about enough, and you'd get more woof at closer distances. Don't over do it tho, just a room reverb with a short reverb time should be enough.
There's also a question of how the other sounds interact with the bass/subbass, which usually points at it's counterpart.. the ultra highs. You'd want to be a bit more generous with the ultra highs than usual cuz these often help in bringing out the ultra lows. It's a trick of psycho acoustics.. But you'll have to experiment. Sometimes this can be done with EQ, sometimes it has to be done with a multicomp. There's no recipe for this part so it's a question of trial and error. Also, as a general guideline, the more subbass you have, the less mid bass. (200-400) It helps to keep fidelity.
Lastly, about keeping the kick and bassline in good order, you'll have to prioritize, meaning you have to make up your mind which one is lower. Since it's very easy for low frequencies to cause phase cancellations, strange hums, or just simply screw up the mix, it's always a good idea to keep them at a good distance. It really depends on the tune, but if you applied subbass to the kicks, usually you'd want to leave the bass line to just eq or a little overdrive to saturate it. (or the other way around)
Oh yeah, and before I forget, about compressing bass drums.. I guess many people know this, but for those who have just started using comps.. Let your bass drums breath. By this I mean you have to give it enough attack time so the lower frequencies can finish their cycle. It's usually around 80-120ms or so, each kick is different.. but the point is, if you squash it too early, you'll end up with only higher frequencies. So remember to give it enough attack time. If you just want to bring out the higher frequencies, cut the attack low (30ms or so), and turn the ratio lower. You don't want too much of that snapping sound that usually simply overloads the mix. Not sure if this applies everywhere, but it's a general guideline that I use. If you want to limit the kick signal, instead of using a limiter, overdrive it just a little. Sounds much more smoother most of the time.
Hmm... is that it? Anyway, I think that's all the "general" tips I can think of.. anyone else have any ideas? Cuz maybe some of these methods are a bit on the conventional side..
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-05-01 06:50 ]</font>
-
transpermia
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Sun Dec 09, 2001 4:00 pm
- Contact:
Nice post there ken. 
Here's a great link on making the Infected Kickdrum from one of my favorite psy artists Infected Mushroom: <a href=http://infected.free.fr/Studio/Html/Kic ... al.htm>How to make an Infected Kick</a>. You can apply this to also to making drums using synths...
Here's a great link on making the Infected Kickdrum from one of my favorite psy artists Infected Mushroom: <a href=http://infected.free.fr/Studio/Html/Kic ... al.htm>How to make an Infected Kick</a>. You can apply this to also to making drums using synths...
Great advice. Seems that if one is to follow your approach that one needs to determine this low end structure at the beginning of the track or arrangement so as not to over write in the mid range or have a sub kick and bass trying to co-exist. I've been trying to develop my low-end structure that has punch but with a low-rolling bassline. From your advice it would seem that the kick would need to remain in the upper side of the low end and the bass below thus giving the punch and low without having them conflict in the same frequency range. This leads me to my next question. How do you know the frequency of your kick or bass? I've tried using FFT analyzers since my monitors do not go very low. But in viewing the frequencies there are always strong frequencies mixed with lower amplitude harmonics. So does one use EQ to shelve the kick and bass until the strong fundamentals are not lying on top of each other? How much does tuning the kick to the key of your track have to do with the tightness and overall clarity of the low end? Some tips or input much appreciated.
Cheers
JD
JD
Cheers
JD
JD
-
kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
yikes... it's going to be reaaally hard to get your bass range right without good monitors. Doing that on an FFT won't help much either. Low rumbling bass lines and low kicks can coexist, with careful control of dynamics. Thinking spectrum-wise is one thing, but you shouldn't forget they can coexist in the time domain.. So think like this: if the attack of the bass comes first, colliding with the snappy part of the kick, and then when the bass goes back a little as it reaches the sustain level, the "woof" of the kick comes out. That, in conjunction with very careful EQ (you can even try a gentle comb gain to "refocus" your kick's center frequency at times) should do the job. But even before that, you'll need the monitors to "see" all this happen. Also, along with FFT analysis, a simple peak analysis with just bass line and kick only can yield useful info. Check and see where your lobes are occuring in your kick and also how your bass sound decays. (but don't do this when you're hurrying a mix tho! )
)
I get asked questions all the time about the best way to record kick drum and bass guitar. Here's my two cents on the subject as it relates to a real acoustic kick drum and an actual electric bass guitar.
Kick: Start by using a microphone designed specifically for the kick drum like an AKG D112. Position the mic inside the kick drum through a hole cut into the front head (or remove the front head altogether). Position a pillow inside the kick drum so it just touches the beater head a bit. If possible, try to use an Aquarian Super Kick I drum head. I use a Tama Iron Cobra pedal on my kick. Tune the beater head so the tension is more or less the same all the way around (a good place to start is around 40 using a Tama Tension Watch). If need be, throw a large moving blanket over the kick. Position the mic anywhere from about 6 inches to a foot away from the head. Angle the mic a bit so it's not pointing at the snare. Using this technique, and with almost no additional EQ, compression or effects, you should be able to get a slamming kick drum with just enough click to sit nice in the mix. If the click is a bit too much, move the mic farther away from the beater head. If you're not getting enough click, try boosting a bit around 6-8kHz or change to a different type of beater. You can also try boosting around 100hz for a bit more low end thump.
I've found limiting is my best friend with the kick. Drummers seem to stomp on the kick pedal with varying amounts of force and a good limiter (like the De'Vice Level-Devil) will really help smooth out the track.
Bass guitar: I can't recommend the Line 6 Bass Pod enough for recording bass guitar. Of course, not everyone has $300 to spend on a tool like that. At very least, spend $50 and get yourself a decent direct box. Simply plugging your bass guitar into your mixer is not a good idea due to impedance mismatch.
Compression is a bass player's best friend. You want to use just enough to bring out the finger attack and smooth out the track. There was a device called Compfree which I downloaded from DSPDEV which I absolutely love for bass guitar.
EQ the bass starting with the very low freq's say around 100Hz. I usually notch these freq's to give the kick drum a little more room. Then I might boost a bit of the bass mids to give the bass some definition in the mix. The amount of hi eq to boost or cut really depends on the song itself. Some pop songs demand a brighter sounding bass. Some songs demand a darker sounding bass. I can't give you general guidelines because it depends on the song itself. So use your own judgement. Quite often, using the Pod, I don't add any additional EQ or compression.
When trying to mix the bass and kick, solo just those tracks and listen to them together. Make sure you can hear both elements clearly. If the bass is overriding too much of the kick, notch the bass in the offending frequencies a bit. Whatever you boost on the kick, your should notch on the bass (and vice versa).
One last comment which I'd like to share: get it right at the source! Adding a lot of muckety-muck to a mix usually causes more problems than it cures. You will always be better off if you can make it sound like you want to before you even hit the record button. Always!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: krizrox on 2002-05-02 12:39 ]</font>
Kick: Start by using a microphone designed specifically for the kick drum like an AKG D112. Position the mic inside the kick drum through a hole cut into the front head (or remove the front head altogether). Position a pillow inside the kick drum so it just touches the beater head a bit. If possible, try to use an Aquarian Super Kick I drum head. I use a Tama Iron Cobra pedal on my kick. Tune the beater head so the tension is more or less the same all the way around (a good place to start is around 40 using a Tama Tension Watch). If need be, throw a large moving blanket over the kick. Position the mic anywhere from about 6 inches to a foot away from the head. Angle the mic a bit so it's not pointing at the snare. Using this technique, and with almost no additional EQ, compression or effects, you should be able to get a slamming kick drum with just enough click to sit nice in the mix. If the click is a bit too much, move the mic farther away from the beater head. If you're not getting enough click, try boosting a bit around 6-8kHz or change to a different type of beater. You can also try boosting around 100hz for a bit more low end thump.
I've found limiting is my best friend with the kick. Drummers seem to stomp on the kick pedal with varying amounts of force and a good limiter (like the De'Vice Level-Devil) will really help smooth out the track.
Bass guitar: I can't recommend the Line 6 Bass Pod enough for recording bass guitar. Of course, not everyone has $300 to spend on a tool like that. At very least, spend $50 and get yourself a decent direct box. Simply plugging your bass guitar into your mixer is not a good idea due to impedance mismatch.
Compression is a bass player's best friend. You want to use just enough to bring out the finger attack and smooth out the track. There was a device called Compfree which I downloaded from DSPDEV which I absolutely love for bass guitar.
EQ the bass starting with the very low freq's say around 100Hz. I usually notch these freq's to give the kick drum a little more room. Then I might boost a bit of the bass mids to give the bass some definition in the mix. The amount of hi eq to boost or cut really depends on the song itself. Some pop songs demand a brighter sounding bass. Some songs demand a darker sounding bass. I can't give you general guidelines because it depends on the song itself. So use your own judgement. Quite often, using the Pod, I don't add any additional EQ or compression.
When trying to mix the bass and kick, solo just those tracks and listen to them together. Make sure you can hear both elements clearly. If the bass is overriding too much of the kick, notch the bass in the offending frequencies a bit. Whatever you boost on the kick, your should notch on the bass (and vice versa).
One last comment which I'd like to share: get it right at the source! Adding a lot of muckety-muck to a mix usually causes more problems than it cures. You will always be better off if you can make it sound like you want to before you even hit the record button. Always!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: krizrox on 2002-05-02 12:39 ]</font>
-
kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
- Contact:
thanx for the awesome feedbacks, glad this is of any use as I've spent quite a few years experimenting these techniques. It's ironic that bass problems are mostly solved by tweaking stuff that's not directly related to bass.
And Krizrox, great tip with the real kicks. I was always wondering how people miced those things. It's good to know how it's "really" done.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-05-02 15:27 ]</font>
And Krizrox, great tip with the real kicks. I was always wondering how people miced those things. It's good to know how it's "really" done.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: kensuguro on 2002-05-02 15:27 ]</font>
-
Neil B
Excellent article!!
Caleb - you're copying all this to a Word Document?
How would you like an Access Database where you can store these tips under key headings and search/view/print by topics or even phrases in the text? It's so easy to think "I wonder how I do that?", search for it, without leaving your pc and then apply the solution - keeps the creative juices flowing without looking through loads of paper folders for the solution!
I've got one just about ready to roll out and offer the forum users.
Caleb - you're copying all this to a Word Document?
How would you like an Access Database where you can store these tips under key headings and search/view/print by topics or even phrases in the text? It's so easy to think "I wonder how I do that?", search for it, without leaving your pc and then apply the solution - keeps the creative juices flowing without looking through loads of paper folders for the solution!
I've got one just about ready to roll out and offer the forum users.
-
Neil B
-
ontik
- Posts: 149
- Joined: Mon Oct 29, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: Me Mum's Moot? Where u from? (Australia)
I've only skimmed through the other writings here so if I'm repeating, apologies in advance.
I like big ass break beats a la Fat Boy Slim
A trick I've used on several occasions is to get my beats as punchy as possible is to mic 'em. IE. Play the beats then record them, by placing a mic in front of the speaker(s), as a new track and begin re-process. You'll find that the recording of the original processed beats is far beefier than the unmic'd version.
Dunno why it works but test it for your self I think you'll find this quite effective.
Can work for basses as well especially when they are more subby/filtered basses and not so course.
ontiK.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ontik on 2002-07-23 09:24 ]</font>
I like big ass break beats a la Fat Boy Slim
A trick I've used on several occasions is to get my beats as punchy as possible is to mic 'em. IE. Play the beats then record them, by placing a mic in front of the speaker(s), as a new track and begin re-process. You'll find that the recording of the original processed beats is far beefier than the unmic'd version.
Dunno why it works but test it for your self I think you'll find this quite effective.
Can work for basses as well especially when they are more subby/filtered basses and not so course.
ontiK.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ontik on 2002-07-23 09:24 ]</font>