upward compression

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Cochise
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upward compression

Post by Cochise » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:18 pm

Upward compression... :roll:
Which devices do you use for this?
(...and for what?)

Cochise
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Re: upward compression

Post by Cochise » Sun Dec 05, 2010 8:24 pm

Actually, I'm not even sure this is the thing I'm looking for.
(I would increase the level BELOW a threshold)

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dante
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Re: upward compression

Post by dante » Sun Dec 05, 2010 9:57 pm

Isnt that an Expander ? just a guess....

Cochise
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Re: upward compression

Post by Cochise » Mon Dec 06, 2010 7:45 am

Nope. I just googled some info about.
I was just confused by erroneous infos I had before.
As far as I can get at now, the (downward) expander acts lowering levels below threshold; at high ratios it's practically a noise gate.
Upward expanders do the opposite work of common compressors (downward compressors): increase above threshold (so they can -any way- de-compress).
Upward compressors should do the opposite work of common expanders... and that's what i'm looking for

mausmuso
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Re: upward compression

Post by mausmuso » Mon Dec 06, 2010 12:47 pm

The Optimizer has an expander section, maybe that will do what you are after?

Cochise
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Re: upward compression

Post by Cochise » Mon Dec 06, 2010 6:54 pm

Ok, I agree the definition "expander" can be kind of misleading.
The device I'm lookin for acts this way: BELOW a threshold, at wide dynamic excursions of the input signal, it has to return narrower dynamic excursion at the output (dynamic compression).



...Optimizer?

mausmuso
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Re: upward compression

Post by mausmuso » Mon Dec 06, 2010 8:15 pm

Sorry meant Optimaster

Immanuel
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Re: upward compression

Post by Immanuel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:33 am

What you want is an expander, where the ratio is set with the higher numbers after the :

So instead of ratios of i.e. 4:1, the ration can be 1:4

I don't know of such a thing for the scope platform, but there may be a third party tool for it somewhere.
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at0m
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Re: upward compression

Post by at0m » Tue Dec 07, 2010 5:28 am

Cochise wrote:I would increase the level BELOW a threshold
Another method is using shapers: Adern's Fat Cat and Flexor's saturation shapers progressively increase the level of more quiet amplitudes:
Image
Valve Drive's curve here is one of the more dramatic examples. Modulating the saturation shapers with an envelope (hyper)follower fed from the dry input allows you to create expansion or compression, by applying a positive or negative modulation amount. The different modules offer a broader range of shapes than Fat Cat, and neither of them ever clips the signal since the loudest is never amplified. From Adern's Music Pack manual:
"Fat Cat is a dynamic saturator, which saturates the quiet parts of the sound, to achieve a special warm compression effect. While most compressors reduce the volume of the loud parts, Fat Cat increases the volume of the quiet parts while retaining the volume of the loud parts."
Immanuel wrote:I don't know of [an expander] for the scope platform
Good news, Immanuel: it comes with the stock effects for Scope :)
more has been done with less

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Re: upward compression

Post by Immanuel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 6:57 am

at0m wrote:
Immanuel wrote:I don't know of [an expander] for the scope platform
Good news, Immanuel: it comes with the stock effects for Scope :)
Ah at0m, you messed this one up. The stock expander does not let you set ratios of 1 : >1 ... (which is not expansion anymore, but I used the expander for the description/clarification ... which - it appears - wasn't that clear) :P
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Cochise
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Re: upward compression

Post by Cochise » Tue Dec 07, 2010 2:12 pm

Immanuel wrote:What you want is an expander, where the ratio is set with the higher numbers after the :
So instead of ratios of i.e. 4:1, the ration can be 1:4 ...
I'm going deeper into the thing.
I've seen compressors where the ratio can be set at decimal values < 1 (i.e. 0.50:1), so even acting as upward expanders (C1 Waves; it has comp/exp stated above in/out meters: device name should actually be related to the transfer function type...)
So now I guess there could be expanders/compressors where the ratio can be likewise set, and then even acting as upward compressors.
I don't have such a plugin though, neither as a VST. C1 Waves can be any way set to obtain a transfer function similar to what I'm looking for, but the threshold has to be set very low, the makeup gain has to be tweaked, and at the end I'm not sure if for high signal values the fransfer funtion returns exactly the unity gain (1:1). I could do some test.. but...
At now the only plugin I could (simply) use for this is a directX coming from a video edit app: Sony (Sonic Foundry) Graphic Dynamics... I didn't tried it yet for real time audio editing, though...
Which plugin are you specifically referring to?

mausmuso wrote:The Optimizer has an expander section, maybe that will do what you are after?
mausmuso wrote:Sorry meant Optimaster
I should like to try that, but I purchased some of the Mix n' Master devices as single plugs and won't pay for the whole pack now to get the Optimaster.
...It should be fine to find a Mix n' Master bargain in the Purchasing and Trading section here.

at0m wrote:Another method is using shapers: Adern's...
Valve Drive's curve here is one of the more dramatic examples. Modulating the saturation shapers with an envelope (hyper)follower fed from the dry input allows you to create expansion or compression, by applying a positive or negative modulation amount. The different modules offer a broader range of shapes than Fat Cat, and neither of them ever clips the signal since the loudest is never amplified...
This is an interesting approach.
Just... Doesn't the initial transient should be altered in its early stage? Is it any way possible to implement any sort of attack time in a Modular approach?

Envelope follower + Control smoother?
The device could only set by ears, though...or not?
Immanuel wrote:...The stock expander does not let you set ratios of 1 : >1 ... (which is not expansion anymore, but I used the expander for the description/clarification ... which - it appears - wasn't that clear)
About the stock expander btw, it has ratios starting from 1:1 up to inf:1, but it seems not actually responding till values of 2.3:1 :-?



...Maybe the topic could be moved in the Device/Modules Wishlist...

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Re: upward compression

Post by Immanuel » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:46 am

Cochise wrote: Which plugin are you specifically referring to?
None, that I know of :)
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Cochise
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Re: upward compression

Post by Cochise » Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:17 pm

@ at0m

It's some time I don't use Modular. I forgot envelope followers have attack and release :D
Actually, rising env follower attack time, it should let the shaper gain without mod source for a while...
The quiet portion of the transient though should be so fast that any alteration will be unaudible...

I had some try with shapers. At now, noway I can get differences with the input signal. :-?
Audible differences only using guitar drive shaper, but... get distorsion too.
Probably I'm doing something wrong. I'll try again soon.

Cochise
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Re: upward compression

Post by Cochise » Sat Dec 18, 2010 11:13 am

Just been on the thing again. Indeed now I've got interesting results using some of the Flexor shapers.
This is the thing applied to a snare (rim) to enhance the tail.

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Good tip at0m, thx

Cochise
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Re: upward compression

Post by Cochise » Tue Jan 04, 2011 4:14 pm

Though it's better suitable to prolong sustain with instrument sounds like guitars.

Imho drums should need more articulated processing...

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ChrisWerner
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Re: upward compression

Post by ChrisWerner » Fri Jan 28, 2011 4:49 am

For tasks as you described I have great results with the compression attempt of Roger Nichols D4 compressor.
With that you can setup four compression zones and compress them individually. Means, the upper zone, from 0 db fs to lets say -10 db fs can be left uncompressed while you only compress a zone from -20 db fs to - 28, or where ever.
I don't know how to build that in SC modular. It would be great to have something like that in scope.

I often use it to enhance the release and room informations (reverb) of an instrument without compressing the whole instrument to death.

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garyb
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Re: upward compression

Post by garyb » Fri Jan 28, 2011 11:22 pm

Optimaster?

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Re: upward compression

Post by wolf » Sat Jan 29, 2011 12:27 am

Not for the whole spectrum, but helpful anyway : LochNess

best,
Wolfgang

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ChrisWerner
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Re: upward compression

Post by ChrisWerner » Sat Jan 29, 2011 1:10 am

I have the Optimaster only for few days now and used it once. As far as I understood, the Optimasters compressor is an "usual" multi band compressor, isn't it? It is..

Can I address a finite range of input levels to a specified range of output levels with Optimaster and that up to four times?
If yes I missed something, teach me.

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Re: upward compression

Post by dawman » Sun Feb 06, 2011 2:33 pm

Optimizer works well for this.
I can click on the Expander and set the Lows first. -60 w/ a threshold
setting of -10
I then set the mids also @ -50 w/ a Threshold setting of -20.
Then the highs @ -60 w/ 0db.

This way my highest level remains intact and the 3 bands can be adjusted
according to taste.

My digital synths all seem to have an unnatural mid range compared to
hardware Analog synths, so this actually gives my synths an even more
Subtractive Analog type of sound.

You can also sidechain in any frequency for further treatments.
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