Hi,
I've been researching the conventional way in which real drums are mic'd/recorded and wonder if anybody sets up drums from a sampler in this way i.e all out over an overhead pair and individual outs for kick,snare,toms & hihat or do you just fire eveything out on separate outs.
I am just wondering if there is any value in just adding ambience to a psuedo stereo overhead.
Any thoughts gratefully received.
I am using the great SM sample set for STS3000 available from this forum (massive thanks to the guy who spent time doing this) and am experimenting with the Scope platform as I am new to it.
Regards,
Simon
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: grappa on 2004-09-05 16:02 ]</font>
Drum Setup?
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blazesboylan
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I've never done this (I tend to mic drums 
) but it sounds like a great idea. And yes, Stige's kit is awesome, isn't it?
Putting some verb on your "room mic" mix, then mixing that in with the individual drums, could possibly give you a great natural feel.
Another consideration when mic'ing live drums is when to double-mic. For example, I've been double-mic'ing snare for a long time (one on the batter skin, one on the chain). This gives you huge control during mixing. I don't know how easy it would be to do with samples though... Multing signals out to 2 EQs might do the trick. For example, with kick, you could send out the boomy side to a low boost EQ, and send the same kick out through a ~ 2-5000 Hz filter to give it some attack. Then when you're mixing it's easy to just raise the "attack" fader, rather than muck with EQ settings... This emulates putting a mic inside the kick and another one on the batter head for attack.
Just a few stray thoughts! Cheers,
Johann
) but it sounds like a great idea. And yes, Stige's kit is awesome, isn't it?Putting some verb on your "room mic" mix, then mixing that in with the individual drums, could possibly give you a great natural feel.
Another consideration when mic'ing live drums is when to double-mic. For example, I've been double-mic'ing snare for a long time (one on the batter skin, one on the chain). This gives you huge control during mixing. I don't know how easy it would be to do with samples though... Multing signals out to 2 EQs might do the trick. For example, with kick, you could send out the boomy side to a low boost EQ, and send the same kick out through a ~ 2-5000 Hz filter to give it some attack. Then when you're mixing it's easy to just raise the "attack" fader, rather than muck with EQ settings... This emulates putting a mic inside the kick and another one on the batter head for attack.
Just a few stray thoughts!
Cheers,Johann
Thanks for the reply johann.
The double mic sounds interesting and I will have a think about that and see if I can rig something up.
A quick question about 'real' drums. When you have a stereo overhead it contains stereo imaging of the kit based on the position of the overheads. Do you then adjust the pan of the direct mic'd drums to suit the stereo image of the overheads?
All I need now is to try and find an example of the sound of a set of 'real' overheads so I can compare/experiment.
One more thing: In the real world if I were to mic a kit in the conventional manner and record but then desire for example a plate verb would this sort of thing be popped on the whole kit via the overheads, on individual drums or ???. I appreciate that different styles have differing requirements but there must be some 'standard' practices?
Regards,
Simon
The double mic sounds interesting and I will have a think about that and see if I can rig something up.
A quick question about 'real' drums. When you have a stereo overhead it contains stereo imaging of the kit based on the position of the overheads. Do you then adjust the pan of the direct mic'd drums to suit the stereo image of the overheads?
All I need now is to try and find an example of the sound of a set of 'real' overheads so I can compare/experiment.
One more thing: In the real world if I were to mic a kit in the conventional manner and record but then desire for example a plate verb would this sort of thing be popped on the whole kit via the overheads, on individual drums or ???. I appreciate that different styles have differing requirements but there must be some 'standard' practices?
Regards,
Simon
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blazesboylan
- Posts: 777
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Yes. Overhead mics often give you a mostly mid and high frequency image of the kit. I've never been able to get any "oomf" or "boom" out of overheads. (Except when I hit my head on them... that has happened more than a few times...)Do you then adjust the pan of the direct mic'd drums to suit the stereo image of the overheads?
Here's the panning setup I usually use:
Kick : middle
Snare : middle
Hi Hat : middle (usually, though, I don't use the hi hat track -- it bleeds through into all the other mics anyway)
Low tom: 45 degrees left
Mid tom: middle
High tom: 45 degrees right
Left overhead (mostly ride): hard left
Right overhead (mostly crash): hard right
Note, though, that close-miking is only one of many ways to mic drums. For example, a common technique is to just use the overheads. Or use the overheads plus a kick mic. And many people add room mics for ambience as well.
Well I'm a hack but I'd be happy to send you the drums tracks from my "craptastic little ditty". It's *very* rough since it was thrown together quickly to A / B some gear. It might be interesting to play with though. If you PM or email (jtienhaara AT yahoo DOT com) your mailing address I can send you either a data or an audio CD. Just let me know.All I need now is to try and find an example of the sound of a set of 'real' overheads so I can compare/experiment.
I know this isn't the answer you're looking for but I think it will vary from person to person and even from mix to mix. Still my tastes (before I got sick of reverbOne more thing: In the real world if I were to mic a kit in the conventional manner and record but then desire for example a plate verb would this sort of thing be popped on the whole kit via the overheads, on individual drums or ???.
) were something along these lines:Kick : a little bit of "small room" verb, maybe even some chorus, to fatten it up
Snare: plate verb
Overheads: sometimes reverb, depending on how much ambience they have to begin with. With a sampled drumkit it would be worthwhile adding some reverb here, though I'm not sure a plate would be my first choice on overheads.
That's my take anyway!
Cheers Simon,Johann
I remember doing a session where the drums sounded absolutely fabulous coming through a vocal mike (AKG414EB-ULS) that was about four feet away from the kit and mouth height (facing away form the drums). For whatever reason it had a perfect, full sound. Unfortunately the singer was also singing into it (for everyone's reference)and therefore it was unuseable as a drum track.
It was very strange and I have never had it happen again.
R
It was very strange and I have never had it happen again.
R
Thanks for the reply Johann - its interesting stuff.
For the overheads I am going to EQ the full stereo kit and roll off the low end to simulate (hopefully) what I'd get on real overheads. I will probably add an Ambient reverb to this to simulate room mics - can't wait for the STW A100
The panning on the SM kit is fixed as (I didn't realise at the start) all of the samples are stereo. It broadly fits your description as only the hihat is different (slightly off to the right).
As for reverb you are right that experimentation given the type of material is required - looks like I have a lot of listening to do.
I will mail you about the sample drum files and appreciate the offer. One of the hardest things here is that without something audible to aim for its a little like working in the dark.
Few, creating 'real' drum sounds is proving hard work but elightening none the less
Regards,
Simon
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: grappa on 2004-09-07 08:55 ]</font>
For the overheads I am going to EQ the full stereo kit and roll off the low end to simulate (hopefully) what I'd get on real overheads. I will probably add an Ambient reverb to this to simulate room mics - can't wait for the STW A100
The panning on the SM kit is fixed as (I didn't realise at the start) all of the samples are stereo. It broadly fits your description as only the hihat is different (slightly off to the right).
As for reverb you are right that experimentation given the type of material is required - looks like I have a lot of listening to do.
I will mail you about the sample drum files and appreciate the offer. One of the hardest things here is that without something audible to aim for its a little like working in the dark.
Few, creating 'real' drum sounds is proving hard work but elightening none the less
Regards,
Simon
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: grappa on 2004-09-07 08:55 ]</font>
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___crisis___1
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Hi there,
Have you checked out toontracks drum kit from hell DFH. They have a VSTi which does exactly what your talking about. You can add ambience to each sample and can also add bleed from other drums into each mic to make the drum kit sound very very real. I thought the info on their site might help you out.
www.toontrack.com
Regards,
Have you checked out toontracks drum kit from hell DFH. They have a VSTi which does exactly what your talking about. You can add ambience to each sample and can also add bleed from other drums into each mic to make the drum kit sound very very real. I thought the info on their site might help you out.
www.toontrack.com
Regards,