Question for the real gurus : termination of freq under 30 h
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blazesboylan
- Posts: 777
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Fascinating topic.
I don't want to start a flame war but I don't believe you Spacef!!!
I don't think you are *really* hearing 30 Hz... Especially since you're not using a subwoofer. There's no way your speakers can reproduce a wide spectrum of sound and keep 30 Hz rumbles in the mix.
Nevertheless I *do* believe that you're getting too much low end. You did mention that you're boosting the bass drum in the 60-100 Hz range. Now I'm a rock'n'roll kinda guy so... Is this normal in the DnB world?!? My kicks are usually boosted @ 250 Hz with a very narrow Q, but that's partly cuz I like more "snap" than "boom". I can imagine going down to 150 Hz or so, for someone who likes "boom". But I can't even imagine how rumbly a sound below 100 Hz would be!
So if you're getting too much bass, maybe you shouldn't be boosting drums at such a low frequency?
Just a thought...
Anyway I really am curious about whether this treatment of boosting 60-100 Hz is common in the DnB world. I'm going to have to try it on a rock mix now and see what happens...
Johann
I don't want to start a flame war but I don't believe you Spacef!!!
I don't think you are *really* hearing 30 Hz... Especially since you're not using a subwoofer. There's no way your speakers can reproduce a wide spectrum of sound and keep 30 Hz rumbles in the mix.Nevertheless I *do* believe that you're getting too much low end.
You did mention that you're boosting the bass drum in the 60-100 Hz range. Now I'm a rock'n'roll kinda guy so... Is this normal in the DnB world?!? My kicks are usually boosted @ 250 Hz with a very narrow Q, but that's partly cuz I like more "snap" than "boom". I can imagine going down to 150 Hz or so, for someone who likes "boom". But I can't even imagine how rumbly a sound below 100 Hz would be!So if you're getting too much bass, maybe you shouldn't be boosting drums at such a low frequency?
Just a thought...
Anyway I really am curious about whether this treatment of boosting 60-100 Hz is common in the DnB world. I'm going to have to try it on a rock mix now and see what happens...
Johann
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hubird
blazesboylan, in dance you need more lows in the kick in general, that's for sure, and D'nB probably even more than club or techno.
But the thing is delicat.
A good kick must have enough around 80 Hz to give you that pleasant push on your breast in a club, while too much 100-120 can fill your ears with a penetrating boom.
Everything above that is a matter of taste and depends on the song etc., it will give you different stages of a added hi-kick click up to 6000Hz.
So to me an important part of the kick is in the lows, BUT then you need to cut the very lows, say 60Hz and lower.
It depends on the source material, but a normal lowcut filter with a normal slope will work well mostly.
Exceptions are very good possible by the way, sometimes you have a great and very low bass synth running, there you can choose to combine it with a natural, less heavy bassdrum .
Although reggea music benefits always nicely from deep kicks
Besides all this: if you're producing a song specially for broadcasting, things are different, you can forget about the lows, but you know that of course.
Wanne know what I mean with a good kick in general?
Take a Roland 909 and give it a little extra around 80 Hz
But the best kick is the kick that fits the song at best, even it's a crappy one with a cardboard box sound at 8 bit
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-05-28 08:13 ]</font>
But the thing is delicat.
A good kick must have enough around 80 Hz to give you that pleasant push on your breast in a club, while too much 100-120 can fill your ears with a penetrating boom.
Everything above that is a matter of taste and depends on the song etc., it will give you different stages of a added hi-kick click up to 6000Hz.
So to me an important part of the kick is in the lows, BUT then you need to cut the very lows, say 60Hz and lower.
It depends on the source material, but a normal lowcut filter with a normal slope will work well mostly.
Exceptions are very good possible by the way, sometimes you have a great and very low bass synth running, there you can choose to combine it with a natural, less heavy bassdrum .
Although reggea music benefits always nicely from deep kicks
Besides all this: if you're producing a song specially for broadcasting, things are different, you can forget about the lows, but you know that of course.
Wanne know what I mean with a good kick in general?
Take a Roland 909 and give it a little extra around 80 Hz
But the best kick is the kick that fits the song at best, even it's a crappy one with a cardboard box sound at 8 bit
_________________
Let There Be Music!
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: hubird on 2004-05-28 08:13 ]</font>
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samplaire
- Posts: 2464
- Joined: Tue Jun 05, 2001 4:00 pm
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I've once heard a radio program (German radiostation) right after Snakefinger died. The Residents had their concert at the funeral party. One song was called (AFAIK) "Six more miles to the graveyard" and it featured cheap casio portable keyboard drums (I had similar once so I know the sound). And the song sounded very well. On the radio, of course.
Sir 
Hi, I just came back from hollydays, I couldn't answer before.
) (i'm also used to synaudio bm6, various genelecs, ns10, and others i don't remember).
I do not HEAR the 30hz, but I SEE them either when I see the boomer displacement by 5 cm or more (the tannoy's suspension system is great for that, the boomer really goes out and almost punch your face ) or when I ANALYZE with a spectrum analyzer. By comparing many kind of tracks (personal/commercial..) I have noticed big differences with my own mixes at and below 30hz.
This is how I came to ask about it. If I heard them, this topic wouldn't exist.
In scary808 answer about wave "size", makes me think of a church organ (pipe size - even though apparent pipes are generallly decoration. but the example still stands fine ). I'm not a monitor specialist, but most monitors manage to transmit sub bass by vibrations in a special cabinet more than purely with the boomer's membrane (because they are too small?).
I don't think most monitors can repoduce 30hz anyway : myself i would need a subwoofer to translate and transmit to the ground the vibrations needed for me to have a global feel of 30hz AND under 30hz. Those frequencies which are "heard" in the belly (stomach/abdomen) and not with your ears.
you agree 
(ok; soprry, i'm being a bitch here
I like kicks with basses, and my HiQ Frequency is in general much much higher than 250 (Hubird's answer, I am trying to mix in this range in general).
But my question was not only about kicks, but about 30hz in the resulting MASTER track (ie, on the Final Record). There are a lot of differences between styles etc, but even with electronic music I often prefered tracks with less sub basses. But I like lows, and I'm looking forward to get the best of both worlds
enough justifications (
)
yes it is a great topic, i also look forward to read more
See you.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2004-06-11 13:18 ]</font>
I don't hear them : I have a Tannoy s600 system, surgical monitors, but pretty soft on bass, and not very good for mixing (nice for making devicesOn 2004-05-28 04:12, blazesboylan wrote:
Fascinating topic.
I don't want to start a flame war but I don't believe you Spacef!!!
) (i'm also used to synaudio bm6, various genelecs, ns10, and others i don't remember).I do not HEAR the 30hz, but I SEE them either when I see the boomer displacement by 5 cm or more (the tannoy's suspension system is great for that, the boomer really goes out and almost punch your face
) or when I ANALYZE with a spectrum analyzer. By comparing many kind of tracks (personal/commercial..) I have noticed big differences with my own mixes at and below 30hz.This is how I came to ask about it. If I heard them, this topic wouldn't exist
. In scary808 answer about wave "size", makes me think of a church organ (pipe size - even though apparent pipes are generallly decoration. but the example still stands fine
). I'm not a monitor specialist, but most monitors manage to transmit sub bass by vibrations in a special cabinet more than purely with the boomer's membrane (because they are too small?).I don't think most monitors can repoduce 30hz anyway : myself i would need a subwoofer to translate and transmit to the ground the vibrations needed for me to have a global feel of 30hz AND under 30hz. Those frequencies which are "heard" in the belly (stomach/abdomen) and not with your ears.
hehe, you seeEspecially since you're not using a subwoofer.
you agree (ok; soprry, i'm being a bitch here
I like kicks with basses, and my HiQ Frequency is in general much much higher than 250 (Hubird's answer, I am trying to mix in this range in general).
But my question was not only about kicks, but about 30hz in the resulting MASTER track (ie, on the Final Record). There are a lot of differences between styles etc, but even with electronic music I often prefered tracks with less sub basses. But I like lows, and I'm looking forward to get the best of both worlds
enough justifications (
)yes it is a great topic, i also look forward to read more
See you.
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: spacef on 2004-06-11 13:18 ]</font>
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Mr Arkadin
- Posts: 3280
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 4:00 pm
I created a short demo dance track with a combination of a kick, an organ and a 'simple' mono sine for the bass section a couple of months ago. Listening to it right now.
When mixing it using my Alesis Prolinear 720 DSP (what a name ?) monitors everything sounded clean below 40Hz and around 250Hz but when listening to the same track in my car, let's say an average car audio system, the bass almost disappeared completely expect for the organ.
Very disappointing! I know there are a lot of aspects to consider when it comes to bass, but if the mix is not right for a listeners average audio system, what's the point in focussing on mixing with expensive studio monitors? Turning up the volume didn't help as it simply amplified everything above 250Hz.
Could it be another instrument in the mix with a low end component? The kick is side-chained compressed against the organ and mono sine. That way, the kick is always there, while the bass is only in between kicks. That was sort of the idea anyway. I did not take any of the other instruments into account though.
I'd be happy to post my example if it helps to find a solution. Don't like to take over someone else's topic so...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dodge77 on 2004-11-23 14:27 ]</font>
When mixing it using my Alesis Prolinear 720 DSP (what a name ?) monitors everything sounded clean below 40Hz and around 250Hz but when listening to the same track in my car, let's say an average car audio system, the bass almost disappeared completely expect for the organ.
Very disappointing! I know there are a lot of aspects to consider when it comes to bass, but if the mix is not right for a listeners average audio system, what's the point in focussing on mixing with expensive studio monitors? Turning up the volume didn't help as it simply amplified everything above 250Hz.
Could it be another instrument in the mix with a low end component? The kick is side-chained compressed against the organ and mono sine. That way, the kick is always there, while the bass is only in between kicks. That was sort of the idea anyway. I did not take any of the other instruments into account though.
I'd be happy to post my example if it helps to find a solution. Don't like to take over someone else's topic so...
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dodge77 on 2004-11-23 14:27 ]</font>
yo all
I have the tannoy reveal modell with the vibrating cone as well.
Whenever I have "problem" low frequences in a mix the cone vibrates widely.
It is very very simple to get rid of these vibrations (and these frequences) with a DC offset remover.
I use the waves X-Hum. Simple dc removal preset and no more mad cone movements.
I noticed that the soundforge dc remover doesn't do the job as well as the waves one. IMO dc offset is a topic overlooked by many developers and producers, and it causes much more problems than most realise. (phase problems, incorrect gain structure, recetified signals). Try messing around with some of your tracks, apply a good dc killer after every stage of prossesing and watch the magic it does.
I know it sounds like I'm overstating the obvious, but try it.
I have the tannoy reveal modell with the vibrating cone as well.
Whenever I have "problem" low frequences in a mix the cone vibrates widely.
It is very very simple to get rid of these vibrations (and these frequences) with a DC offset remover.
I use the waves X-Hum. Simple dc removal preset and no more mad cone movements.
I noticed that the soundforge dc remover doesn't do the job as well as the waves one. IMO dc offset is a topic overlooked by many developers and producers, and it causes much more problems than most realise. (phase problems, incorrect gain structure, recetified signals). Try messing around with some of your tracks, apply a good dc killer after every stage of prossesing and watch the magic it does.
I know it sounds like I'm overstating the obvious, but try it.
Just chiming in here as someone who has been playing Dnb records (sometimes for a living) for about 10 years now...
A mix is about all the parts fitting together and having the balance that allows the important parts to paint the wides strokes. There is no 'always boost this' for a Dnb(jungle) kick freq range, but rather ask yourself if you want the focus to be on your breaks/beats or on the subbass/bass in the tune you're making.
Breaky/roller type tunes will often have more prominant kick & snare in the lower ranges, although I wouldn't boost 60hz but rather 75-80hz and you'll get some 60hz improvement there as well. The techy and more modern 'Neurofunk' sounds typically favor slick low end overall with a balance of kicks being slightly higher. Kemal used to even highpass his kicks around 80hz to make room for extreme sub in the mix, and presumably he would also truncate his kicks in an audio editor so that they were very short and only included enough of the impact and tone for them to still sound like kicks.
Dom (Dom&Roland) prefers to have his kicks in the 80-120hz range with a massive sub roughly around 50hz and the bottom end rolled off after (a lot of this is done in mastering) as he feels most club systems are best suited for 50-60hz 'umph'. My friend Calyx prefers to run his drums clipped slightly and keep a bit more kick, and he overdrives his bass channel on his analog mixer quite a bit to get a nicely overdriven sound out of the Sountracs mic pre's (versus boosting the 50hz range heavily). Liquid-funk style producers would probably opt for a less saturated sound all around with a kick of slighly higher tone to match the more organic sounds they use, and probably a bit more sustain on the 'body' of the kick tone to make the low end pump in that housey organic fashion (sidechaining the bass a tad helps with this too of course).
In lower bpm music the kicks are often enveloped a lot longer (if at all) but in Dnb you'll find that if you have too much sustain on your kick you'll swamp the low end of your mix and make mud. Too little (or too much timestretch) and you'll have beater impact but no tone.
A mix is about all the parts fitting together and having the balance that allows the important parts to paint the wides strokes. There is no 'always boost this' for a Dnb(jungle) kick freq range, but rather ask yourself if you want the focus to be on your breaks/beats or on the subbass/bass in the tune you're making.
Breaky/roller type tunes will often have more prominant kick & snare in the lower ranges, although I wouldn't boost 60hz but rather 75-80hz and you'll get some 60hz improvement there as well. The techy and more modern 'Neurofunk' sounds typically favor slick low end overall with a balance of kicks being slightly higher. Kemal used to even highpass his kicks around 80hz to make room for extreme sub in the mix, and presumably he would also truncate his kicks in an audio editor so that they were very short and only included enough of the impact and tone for them to still sound like kicks.
Dom (Dom&Roland) prefers to have his kicks in the 80-120hz range with a massive sub roughly around 50hz and the bottom end rolled off after (a lot of this is done in mastering) as he feels most club systems are best suited for 50-60hz 'umph'. My friend Calyx prefers to run his drums clipped slightly and keep a bit more kick, and he overdrives his bass channel on his analog mixer quite a bit to get a nicely overdriven sound out of the Sountracs mic pre's (versus boosting the 50hz range heavily). Liquid-funk style producers would probably opt for a less saturated sound all around with a kick of slighly higher tone to match the more organic sounds they use, and probably a bit more sustain on the 'body' of the kick tone to make the low end pump in that housey organic fashion (sidechaining the bass a tad helps with this too of course).
In lower bpm music the kicks are often enveloped a lot longer (if at all) but in Dnb you'll find that if you have too much sustain on your kick you'll swamp the low end of your mix and make mud. Too little (or too much timestretch) and you'll have beater impact but no tone.