STS-x000 VS. Halion

ohmelas · Post by **ohmelas** » Sun Mar 31, 2002 8:11 am

Happy Easter All,

I just emailed the folks over at Chicken Systems to see if they were working on a work around as well. I guess the good news is that we can bascially set up a combi style patch in STS and get the 8-layers. I assume this involves loading two programs then. Problem with the 2nd program is that all the samples will have to be set up individually. On a typical drum kit 8-16 pieces that's roughly another 32-64 samples that must be programmed provided the layering on the first sample goes through......there goes a session and an afternoon.

Also does anyone have a list of filters for the STS-5000?

I used to use two K2000s and two ESI-2000s. I bought the Pulsar/SCOPE SRB system to replace both of them. I miss the FUNs on the K2000 for drums and some analog stuff (though the Pulsar makes up for than in better other ways i.e. virtual synths) and I miss the bazillion filters on the ESI like doeppler and a bunch of neat stuff like that. It was a slow on the processing and not very graphical though. For the most part though, I'm happy.

So besides that is anyone using the MegaGiga Drums off of the Soundsonline ? It says its for S-5000 samplers. Can we import that?

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/det ... sku=BS-343

They have a streamlined version for regular Akai:

http://www.soundsonline.com/sophtml/det ... sku=BS-216

The demo files seem along the lines I'm looking for. Anybody else have suggestions?

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ohmelas on 2002-03-31 08:19 ]</font>

eliam · Post by **eliam** » Sun Mar 31, 2002 5:34 pm

Marcus- that's no good news... But for sure, if we can convert some programs to .gigs it's a matter of time before the complete translating tools are available, I hope...

ohmelas · Post by **ohmelas** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 10:50 am

The Guys from Chicken systems emailed me back. This is what they said:

>2. If we can find the sample library we're looking for then we'd like to ranslate it into STS format for the Pulsar.
>3. Problem is, STS can only have 4 velocities per note set up and if the patch/program we're trying to convert has 8 per note we found that it does only the bottom end and cuts off the top end.
>4. We found a work around by setting up another patch/program and assigning samples at the upper velocities and just triggering off the same MIDI channel with two programs.

That's one solution. The other is to create overlapping keygroups in the same Program.

>5. So, our question is two fold, the other guys are using awave and I'm using the Translator, does the Translator do in this instance?

We convert to one Program, with overlapping Keygroups. Actually, STS does support more that 4 vels if you do this. It's just not very well documented.

and Two, what in your experience do you know of a sample library that does has really good multi-velocity, multi-sampled layered, acoustic drums?

I'm not an expert, but we've seen the Erskine stuff - 12 velocities.

>The guys from awave aren't converting the programs this way and I was wondering if there was something that you could do about it?

Not to diss Awave, but the quality has not been there. As far as Translator goes either do it correct or want to do it correct; that is, exact. If there isn't something that comes out exact, please send us the file and we'll address or fix it within 24 hours.

Wow, that's some claim. I guess I'm going to remain a customer of Chickensystems. I did have a problem with EMU ESI stuff once and they fixed it for me. I was converting batches to STS and if the bank was too big it wouldn't do it all for me. They took the file and broke it down. I digress.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Mon Apr 01, 2002 12:40 pm

I use the STS mostly for "straight" samples - drums, sounds that don't need much processing - not the extreme mangling - nothing that I know of really replaces a Kurzweil, so if you miss it, get it and add it to your weaponry. Kurzweils totally rock at the mangling stuff.

ohmelas · Post by **ohmelas** » Tue Apr 02, 2002 4:03 am

Let's put the question further...

More so on the sample library than the sampler....

Are giga samples better than akai?

If I were to go buy the massive bundle from soundsonline (the $4000 one) and a nice little rackmount PIII 1.2 ($600 with some used computer parts around the house)with a small CW card or Korg Oaysys (add further functionality to my system and also get ready for the System Link Cubase $350 on ebay) how much better would my $4950+shipping have been spent for a similarly priced system in samples on the STS/akai library (i.e. STS-5000 and a S#$t-load of samples?

The whole reason for ditching the Kurzweils was because they were really really really really really slow. It took forever to audition a sample and then if I didn't like it [tap your toes some more while you wait]. Functionality is one reason why I went computer based, although I'm not finding the samples that I really really want.

I'd like to get Advanced Orchestra soon, some kick butt drums, a really cool set of pianos, some nice vocal libraries, folley, and some other stuff. Giga seems to do all of that stuff really well. The analog music, I've got CW dudes and I like it.

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 1:19 am

For conversions, it's true AWAVE will only convert the first four layers into an AKAI program.

I had a sample instrument - a piano with 16 layers and I coverted 4 layers at a time into the AKAI program and it correctly converted all the relevant velocity settings, so effectively I had a piano on separate programs with the full velocity range.

However, these layers were actually the same samples with different programming eg. filter settings on each layer, so what I ended up doing is multiplying the samples by 4 and loading them into the STS - meaning that I basically ran out of room with my 512MBytes of RAM. Ooooops.

I keep using my $80 VSampler and get good results for the piano parts.

However, my point is that I did find a reasonable work around, it's just not necessarily a good work around for that particular instrument patch.

But this might be an occasion that I do actually agree a bit with DXL. As much as I want to own the STS5000, I think GigaStudio, Kontakt and even Halion are probably a better option for the money. Even my VSampler holds up pretty well - but then again it has won some editor's choice awards.

Pssst... will probably buy the STS5000 anyway.

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 5:48 am

On 2002-04-03 01:19, caleb wrote:
As much as I want to own the STS5000, I think GigaStudio, Kontakt and even Halion are probably a better option for the money.

I don't completely agree:

Giga is great and powerfull, but doesn't do pitchshift, timestretch, formant.

Kontack (when it will be out), seem to be the best one of all, it'll do all that and more. Including recording and 256 voices.

Halion? What a jokes... Unusable, no nothing, bad interface, mostly no control over playback. Way too much hype over this one.

Like i said before, the only 2 disadvantage of STS5000 = NO multiple stereo out, and comsume lots of DSPs.

If I would buy a sampler now, this would be my choice (assuming Kontakt is already out)

1 - Kontakt
2 - STS5000
3 - Giga
4 - STS4000
5 - STS3000
6 - Halion
7 - EXS24

In fact, the minute Kontakt is out, i think i'm gonna get it. And is suppose to be alot cheaper than Giga. As for STS5000, well, don't have enough DSPs for this now, and next upgrades is probably Scope/SP, so will wait, find more money, and get it.

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 6:10 am

Yeah, the pitch shifting etc. is a good function, but I'm not sure if having that would tip the scales in favour of STS5000 over GigaStudio. Although I'm just saying that from a consumer perspective as I don't own these synths.

And putting Halion above STS5000 was a bit of a stretch really.

I'm even half thinking of the Kontakt myself. I'm not sure if it will be actually cheaper for me than the STS5000 as I could get that at an upgrade price from the STS3000.

I'm even interested to see if I decide to even upgrade from my current set up.

I'm spinning around now.

subhuman · Post by **subhuman** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 10:56 am

Does the latency of native not bother most people here then?

ohmelas · Post by **ohmelas** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 12:30 pm

Latency isn't an issue with me because I usually record sounds with a real instrument from the keyboard. I save the samples for a post production aspect usually. I'll chose samples, program them a bit and use that on the back end of a session.

Most of these native solutions don't have latency issues when playing---only on recording. There is a really easy work around--just use a regular keyboard with regular sounds when tracking and I'm cool.

As far as Kontact is concerned, I'm considering it. I guess I'm in the wait and see mode right now which makes this whole discussion interesting. I was going to make a buying decision from this but, I guess the consesnsus is that Kontact has promise. We'll see.

STS-5000 beyond my needs currently even with my DSP.

Halion. I'm not totally unsold on this. I like the VST integration so that's what makes it more appealing to me over Gigasampler. Anyway I cut a native solution though I need more Pentium Power!

marcuspocus · Post by **marcuspocus** » Wed Apr 03, 2002 5:03 pm

On 2002-04-03 10:56, subhuman wrote:
Does the latency of native not bother most people here then?

Well, it's one of the thing that made me put STS5000 at second place, but latency, with the nice asio2 from pulsar

and ULLI@3ms isn't bothering that much... And what made me put Giga under STS5000 is exactly for this in fact, since it's not VST, it's not sample accurate, and jitter alot.

ohmelas · Post by **ohmelas** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 5:21 am

The Call for STS-6000 or STS-5000 V2.0. I hear it now....

New filter types. Include Doppler F/X, Bit Munching/LO-FI, an Interpolating Filter (similar to the Z-Plane from EMU)

Giga/Halion compatible

8-layers per note

Added Direct support of Kurzweil, EMU and Roland Formats

Could Creamware do it? Boy I'd like to see it happen.

ernest@303.nu · Post by **ernest@303.nu** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 6:53 am

Ohmelas, I'd like to add:

assigning MIDI controllers by simply right-clicking the parameter, like 99,9953402% of the other Pulsar devices. I don't like the current procedure. This would also offer a solution to my next wish:
much much more cc# destinations!!!!
and why no unlimited number of layers?
possibility of relative global editing of sample parameters within a program. For example, sometimes imported .sf2/akai programs have a tuning offset for the different keygroups, things get f*cked up when I touch one of the settings
more than 16 program slots! (I like to assign multiple programs to the same MIDI channel and running out of slots is easy this way)
setting STS-2/3/4/5k modus per program to free up DSP
possibility to disable the fixed modulation assignment (cc# 7/10/11/67/70/72/73). They can come in handy to free up controllers but sometimes they're fighting with other instruments I'd assigned the same cc#'s
drag'n'drop of multiple programs at once from Explorer
I can go on forever

Still, the STS-5000 beats the competition! I have this Kontakt beta release (from questionable source), didn't dare to check it out on my stable system but might try it on another computer...

btw the list of STS-5000 filters is in it's pdf manual.....

<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: ernest@303.nu on 2002-04-04 08:04 ]</font>

caleb · Post by **caleb** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 8:53 pm

Hmmmm latency.

Zero latency is certainly a plus and I do notice the difference, but not enough of a difference in my current set up to make it a deciding factor.

But it's a weighing up thing really - one disadvantage/advantage against another.

It seems to me that the STS series excel on AKAI import and if my entire sample library happened to be S1000 formatted files and I didn't intend to use any other format then that would be a strong factor in making a decision.

However, as the majority of my sample library is .sf2, the problematic import of that format is a disadvantage.

That's just an example of something I might weigh up against the zero latency advantage.

It's just a matter of prioritising your needs and making your assessment based on those needs.

Of course, if you're more of a sample head with creating your own samples being the most vital function of the sampler, things like .sf2 import or even Akai import could take very much a back seat to the pitch shifting and filtering of the STS5000.

It's all a matter of using your internal scales I guess.

dblbass · Post by **dblbass** » Thu Apr 04, 2002 10:29 pm

maybe the STS(5)000 wishlist should be moved to a new thread. here are a couple more:

1. better SF2 support

2. some kind of streamin mode, and import of giga format. (would this improve RAM use with STS? are there some kind of patent problems?)

asktoby · Post by **asktoby** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 6:44 am

On 2002-03-29 22:33, marcuspocus wrote:

In STS5000 you get 25!!! Yes 25 differents filter! And a lot more CC you can assign to control all of this...

What is the application of having 25 separate filters? I'm familiar with sampling from using my old EWS64XL but I've never managed to climb the STS learning curve.

scary808 · Post by **scary808** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 4:24 pm

On 2004-02-17 06:44, asktoby wrote:

What is the application of having 25 separate filters? I'm familiar with sampling from using my old EWS64XL but I've never managed to climb the STS learning curve.

He meant 25 options as far as your filters go. Definitely check the STS' out. They're quite flexible & very creative(although a little buggy). The manual for the STS' is a little overwhelming but helpful nonetheless. I know the file structure is a bit odd but once you've got it, you've got it!

ohmelas · Post by **ohmelas** » Tue Feb 17, 2004 5:33 pm

Hey Guys,

I've not been back here in a while. I thought I'd add some future follow up to my sample dilema:

I got rid of my PC about 6 months ago. I've gone Mac and have never looked back. I've since converted my entire home into a Macintosh paridise with a slew of older Macs from Ebay. The place is wired and kickin! To date, I've only crashed once and I think it was a memory thing. On my OSX I'm using Reason and that program rocks.

For my brain I've gone to an out-of-the-box solution as convenience was my over ridiging factor with everything. I'm using a Roland Xv-5080 and although the 4 layers deep on the SRX drum and piano samples isn't the best soution I've heard in terms of quality it is the most functional. I can in any given situation inside digital peformer audition a sound effortlessly and load it and have it work rather than the tedious aspects of sampling associated with most Samplers. That power versus convenince is something that I guess I sacrified but so far I've been very very very happy and haven't looked back.

Reason is very powerful, does all that I want it to do and although missing some things over my previous SCOPE system, it does the trick well.

I'm considering a TC Powercore Firewire. That would be nice on my Powerbook rig!