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 Post subject: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 3:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:46 am
Posts: 59
Hi guys,

I am Marcel from Holland.
Last month i started a new band with some friends. Its a mix from musicians and dj's
What we do is record loops from the instruments, process it and then mix it with mute groups etc dj wise.
We use ableton and reason together.
I bought a behringer x32 producer tot get hold of inputs and routing but was disappointed about the soundcard latency.
The only good thing was the dynamics on al the channels. Well i brought it back to the store now.
I did remember my old pulsar 2 card lying around somewhere and after testing it with sfp 4 on w7 32 it still seems to work fine.
So at home i rebuilded my computer with a gigabyte ga x58a udr 3 motherboard i had in spare.

I upgraded to 5.1 so i could run reason and sfp at the same time and maybe run the Waves multirack also at the same time.
This pc is a monster i use for rendering 3d, aftereffects etc and some studiowork for audio. It got a i7 980x and 24 gyg ram.
As you can guess i didnt get the pulsar 2 stable. Probably i have isseus with irq like my firewire inputs and 9 hard disk on the system. Reason wont work with the pulsar but cubase does.
But i cant do any reroute via wave sources and destenations
I guess its better to build a dedicated system for the Pulsar but then again why spoiling my investment in the upgrade. (gues you dont get a refund)
The other thing is i have to reroute signals into reason and i rather have much i/o with low latency than only 4/4 io with poor latency of a USB soundcard.
Idealy i can run reason, wavesrack and pulsar 2 on one sytem and route the signals anyware and even attach more soundcards for i/o

So i have in mind to build a system in a flightcase containing my 2x Behringer ADA 8200
I could build a monster with a supermicro motherboard with 2 sockets an putting 2x xeons 56xx on it to have 12 cores and plenty of ram for processing.
Unfortunatly i cant realy compare builds as there are not a lot systems to compare to, a few i can find on this forum.
So it looks like a 1150 socket would be my best bet.
But even then i dont know if that gonna work with 64 bit and let me use Reason 9 with it.
It would be a dissapointment if i found out that al my investments would be wasted so does any of u guys and girls have some good feedback or advice for me.

With regards,

Marcel


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2016 5:26 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:46 am
Posts: 59
I checked the IrQ settings on my ga x58a udr 3 setup
Nvidia gtx 970 and some other thinks are on the same IRQ
When i put my gtx a slot lower Windows 10 a slot it still puts it on the same irq
I guess its W10 that getting in the way. Ill have to look up how i can chance irq, W10 wont let me


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2016 6:14 am 
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Did a lot of reading again and i'm more confident about building a system with SCS 5.1 64 bit.
I looked at the socket 1150 server/workstation motherboard series P9D with the 3 PCI slots and went true the manuals.
I found out that you could configure the IRQ's and disable enable just anything what gets in the way.
Ill thinking to put a Intel Core i5-4690 or a xeon Intel Xeon E3-1226 v3 on it.
Both procs have a onboard GPU so i could disable the PCI e x16 bus and have more space on IRQ's
Ill investigate options like Dante virtual soundcard what could open low latency routing via network.

Does anybody here know what would benefit the most either a i5 that is 0,2 ghz faster or a xeon er that has 2mb cache more than the i5?


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 11:06 am 
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Some people will give you good advice about what you're asking, here... But not me ! I'm unable to tell you anything about CPU !

But there is something I'm wondering... I'm a Kontakt libraries lover and I use a lot of ram eater vst's.. But I 'only' have 16Gb ram.. And never need them all. You say your pc has 24Gb of ram, I'd like to know if it happens often to use all that memory ? Maybe for some video apps ? Are video apps using video libraries like for audio ?

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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 12:40 pm 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:46 am
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If you render video u have to add enough ram to use the cores of youre cpu. If you havnt enough the system uses less cores and rendering slows down. this also count if u use cuda of the graphic card.In my case i can run 12 threads for coding and for aftereffects i use cuda. ALso u can make ramdisk previeuws in aftereffects to speed up your workflow. With 3d programs its almost the same.
Photoshop can eat ram but 16 gyg will be enough. U need very high resolutions and loads of layers to run out of ram.
I also use resolume and with loads of content it eating all my ram.

For audio use samplers can eat your ram to. Kontact does en Reason does to. Some people use ramdrive so u dont have any loadtime for the sample.

A pitty u cant help me out ill wait for other users who can help me out.
After realising i cant run reason 9.1 with scope my confidence lays on the floor.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Tue Nov 01, 2016 6:42 pm 
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Joined: Sun Jul 24, 2005 4:00 pm
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Location: PROJECT WINDOW
Ive gigged with Scope for 1w years now.
Never a single problem.
I use XITE1s since 2009.
Also use ADA8200s with BLA and Revive Audio modifications.

I use Z97s and i7s.
Lots of PLAY PianoTeq Spectrasonics Kontact u-He....

Z97 with NVMe and SSDs is as good as it gets.
Cant comment on the cards since Intel 865PERL Conroe builds.
But back then the Dual Core Wolfdale e8600 was damn good stuff.
Just dont think the Zebra2 HZ would have allowed 2 x Diva Filters or higher polyphony.

Dante knows Reason and Scope really well.

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http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Wed Nov 02, 2016 5:03 am 
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Posts: 59
Hi Dawman,
Good to see you actualy gigged with the scope and didnt have any troubles.
Can i ask you why u use a i7 on youre z97 with scope.
I mean when you switch hypertreading off the i7 doesnt look to be faster than a i5.

I got reason working now but i think i got to reinstall scope drivers and software.
Hardware midi is not stable and asio wont work on first startup.
That is on my test pc a HP elite 8000 sff
If i got that system working i maybe consider to upgrade to a quadcore q9650 and 16 Gygabyte ram for time being.
Instead of investing in a new system i could invest in 2x dante PCI-e cards en route my signals over network.
I could do that with dante via software but i'm still testing the latency
Got a lot of things to figure out but luckely i enjoy doing that.

Btw how do you like the ada8200?


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 3:46 am 
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Update,

Thanks to Gary i got reason working now.

I've been testing with 2 computers and audio over lan with Dante via https://www.audinate.com/products/software/dante-via
So far i'm realy exited course it works out fine. I can route audio everywhere. In fact u can use dante via on 1 computer and get a asiomulticlient that works.
This means u can plug in all youre different soundcards and route signals between them. The only cap is the 16/16 channels max. Doesnt matter for me that much becourse 16 mono inputs and 8 stereo is more than enough for me. You can upgrade the channelcount by using dante virtual soundcard. Hold in mind u have to use at least 1 hardware dante card or a PCI-e card for that. Its even possible to us Motu AVB for that.

For midi i found the same sort solution for free. Its called rtpMIDI [urlhttp://www.tobias-erichsen.de/software/rtpmidi.html][/url]
It works realy great, on my network it says i have 0 ms latency and i have to say it feels like 0 ms to.

So now i got that sorted out i'm back to thinking about the building of a system.
My test machine for the pulsar 2 was a old HP elite 8000 sff with a dualcore pentium @ 3 ghz and 4 gyg of ram.
I could be building a single system what would cost about 800-900 euro.
The thing is ill be capped to 4 cores using the pulsar course of the limitations to 1150 or 1151 platforms. I cant use hyperthreading so the differnece in perfomance wouldnt be that much compared to a upgrade to a intel Core 2 Quad Q9650 3Ghz and 16 gyg ram for the HP system. That would cost me about 100-150 euro.
I'm lucky to have acces of loads of the hp elite 8000 systems for free. The great thing about the Hp 8000 is the small for factor.
I could easely fit 4 motherboards in a case i have lying around. U can use 2 displays on every system.
Using teamvieuwer would make things easier cours i could use tablets and smartphones or a single pc display to monitor what i,m doing.
In this scenario my total count of processor cores would be 16 for less than 600 euro. That is for the hardware of course. I would need 4 licenses of dante via or the package deal what cost me about 220 euro.

So as u can guess i already made my desicion and ill go for the old systems and make a custom mobile setup.
This give me the option to use dedicates systems for daws, synths, samplers, dynamics etc.
I should give me much upgrade options en even more expansion if i can get my hands on modern systems for low prices.
I would no longer be restricted of thinking in the small box of 1 system for all purpose.

At first i have to build something up route signals and get it working. After that ill be working on making things startup automaticly.
If this al works i thinking of customize the whole thing with controllers an some small displays to fit in the case and make it a piece of hardware.

Ill keep u updated about my experience and build if u interested.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Thu Nov 03, 2016 10:26 am 
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Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2010 12:37 am
Posts: 307
I'm using one of those small form factor HP machines in my day job and I like them a lot, because they're small, reliable and very silent.
That's why I was thinking to get one for my SCOPE cards, too. I just didn't have the time to check if they'll be good for that purpose.
One thing I'm wondering is if one or even two of the big cards with 14/15 DSP will fit into the SFF case?

And by the way, MIDI over LAN can also be done with CopperLan (it's free as well).

Please let us know what you'll end up with. It's always interesting to know what works and what not.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:11 am 
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Joined: Thu Oct 27, 2016 3:46 am
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The pulsar wont fit in the case without removing the cap and cutting some metal on the backside. In my case it doesnt matter course i not gonna use the case at all.
Will keep you updateted.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 05, 2016 4:21 pm 
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About i7 vs i5--i7 without hyperthreading is a seeming setback equal to i5, but the cache is larger, among a few other small performance details.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 1:02 am 
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Quote:
About i7 vs i5--i7 without hyperthreading is a seeming setback equal to i5, but the cache is larger, among a few other small performance details.

For the price difference i would be leaning to a I5, the xeons at the other hand have i bigger cache to.
That is for the socket 1150 procs. On 1151 i would lean to the i7 6700 K as the clockspeed is 4 ghz


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Mon Nov 07, 2016 3:21 am 
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i5 doesnt give you 400mhz extra with a voltage bump.
i7s with low watts @ 3.6 can do 4gb easy.
Just need extra overhead mainly for u-He Zebra2 HZ.
Zebra2 gets locked to a single core, so faster is better.
i7 4790k at stock speeds is perfect for as it hovers around 50%.

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http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 11:10 am 
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Quote:
i5 doesnt give you 400mhz extra with a voltage bump.
i7s with low watts @ 3.6 can do 4gb easy.
Just need extra overhead mainly for u-He Zebra2 HZ.
Zebra2 gets locked to a single core, so faster is better.
i7 4790k at stock speeds is perfect for as it hovers around 50%.


In my case the system is not focused on the Zebra.
Still i have to figure out the ideal clockspeed, corecount, memory for the right price.

i.m a bit disapointed in the market for my upgradeplans for the hp elte 800.
I was experiencing big latency problems and dropouts withe the dual core while i had almost a full load for the dsp's om the pulsar 2.
To be onest i was disapointed running 1 comp 1 mixer 1 masterverb pro and 2 synts eating all my dsp power.
It looks like ill be using the pulsar only for low latency inputs and maybe a synth or 2.
after much testing i realising the hart of my system needs more power than the dsp and a litlle cpu power.
i gonna buy a HP z800 workstation this week for 350 euro. Cant find any info on a z800 and the pulsar so i gonna be a guinea pig.

If it worksout i gonna upgrade the z800 to needs. Ill start out with a xeon x5660 @ 2.8 ghz and 12 gyg mem. A second x5660 would be a cheap upgrade. Upgrading to 2x xeon 5690 would be 500 more gaining about 500 Mhz. upgrading memory would be cheap and let me step up easely. For 300 euro i would have 96 gygabyte and could layering kontakt tracks endlessly.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:39 pm 
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Im building an AMD as soon as I get the 8 core chip from a Dell PC @ CES.
Gotta buy the whole box but really hope AMD Chipsets work.

Intel and M$ have planned obsolecense for us.
Z170 wont keep ASIO driver loaded.
Tried Bidule Cantabile.

If AMD doesnt work Scope will eventually become a live monitor mixer for IEMs.
Its always going to used.
The benefit there is I could use an i3 and mini itx since Scope doesnt need a fast CPU.

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http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Wed Nov 09, 2016 5:40 pm 
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If you still are in the market in 2 months Ill share the build here.

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http://soundcloud.com/jimmyvee/sets/sol ... akt-tunes/


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:31 am 
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Quote:
Im building an AMD as soon as I get the 8 core chip from a Dell PC @ CES.
Gotta buy the whole box but really hope AMD Chipsets work.


Wich CPU and what MoBo would that be?
AMD is cheap compare to intel but what i been reading AMD is underperforming in audio apllications.
Howmuch i dont realy now. Keep me informed im realy intressted.

I did a Reason 9 stress test with my 1366 i7 x980 proc@3.33 Gzh and hit 55 seconds. https://www.reasontalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=7263897
Compared to much newer systems i did pretty good. Beating most 4 ghz + quadcores. Outstanding was New 6 and 8 cores intels beating all, even at low speeds.
This give me much hope for my new old HP z800 workstation. At the other hand when i upgrade to a second proc it might give less results course of sync problems could get worse with more core count..


Edit: I see you reffering to the new AMD zen.
I'm picking up my base HP 800 today. I think this gives me enough headroom for expansion for now. I stopped buying newly out hardware as i stopped buying new cars. Gives me more choice and the option to buy quality for less.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Sat Nov 12, 2016 8:11 am 
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Update,

Bought a HP Z800 for 330 euro.
It got 1 proc xeon x5660 @ 2.80 Ghz and 12 gyg ram to start out with.
In the bios the only thing to turn of was hyperthreading.
Installed sonic core scope 5.1 flawlessly. No crackle or anything.
Didnt had to use the reason workaround. It just worked.

Did a Reason stress test https://www.reasontalk.com/viewtopic.php?t=7263897 and scored 47.8 seconds.
That a very good result outperforming most modern i7 quadcores. I curious what the results are if i put a second proc on.
I think i just buy another x5660 as it is cheap. Could go for the 5690 or 5680 tot increase clockspeed to 3.4 Ghz but that would cost about 500 euro for procs and heatsinks.
I dont think i realy need the little extra speed for that price. Ram expansion is easy and cheap to.

So i'm realy exited it works. The z800 is a great machine. Big but moveable as it got big handles on it.
The only thing is there is only 1 pci slot. For me ok course i have just 1 pulsar 2
For people who have 2 cards the Z600 could be a option. It got 2 pci slots. The only thing is that it has 6 memory slots instead of 12. With 16 gyg ram modules that wouldnt be a problem though.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Wed Nov 23, 2016 3:55 pm 
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Update

Still having issues with the pulsar 2 even with 32 bit and only dsp mode.
I think thats dpc latency related.

For my live set i invested due some profits of selling my first hd recording homestudio on a clab falcon and a formal office falcon 030 giving me a whooping 2200 dollars.
I bought a Behringer x32 core and adat 32/32 expansion, a new RME Raydat card 36/36 i/o and routed that with 2x Behringer ada8200.
Build 1 pc in a 10u case and build the units and synth modules in it. So now i'm ready for show.
Still if i can eliminate every issue with the pulsar i would build it in the same pc as my RME and use the extra dsp and routing and even the asio.
Otherwise if it aint broke i got to be patient and build a dedicated system for it.
Already found a way to build a pci hook to put the pulsar horizontally what gives me the option of putting it in a 1u or 2u server and put that in my flightcase as well.
But i rather have it in 1 system to get all the goodies out of it.


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 Post subject: Re: planning new scope system for Live usage
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2016 1:19 pm 
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Hello Manomars,

I just thought i had to poop some of my own experiences here..it has been a too long while i was on PZ

I updated my system few months ago, and i still work the old cards so it was a hassle....i had to hack my bios, rewrite it bacause it didn't have the pci latency option visible by default. That was a big improvement! By default it is probably set to 32, try 96 or 128 if it is visible, or also try to decode and rewrite the bios...first time i flashed my bios on my newer system with my own rewritten bios...man...i chewed off my fingers....but it all went well and improved muchos in what i could load on the scope cards...and stability improved a lot. that is what you want.

the whole irq stuff, if your bios doesn't support dedicated irq assignment it can probably do not much in shared irq's. If it does have...windows probably wont listen to it...
IRQ tables etc is a whole science in itself...if you gonna go w7..since you want x64 i recall hopefully correct that you can't do a damn thing about it further that just trying the perfect combo in setting them in you pci slot...there are tools....didn;t work for me...costs a lot of time and eventually i gave in.

I went for the 1150 socket option, and came from a dual opteron dual core...but i won't do an amd system ever again. yeah yeah...it's cheaper, but intel is just very good, less compat problems, and they run cooler....especially live that is important. Go for a good psu...not some cheap one...and make sure your case in well ventilated...especially live...

@DAWMAN i would think twice before going AMD again...

My system ran very well...but it cost so much time in finding the correct mb and processors etc....

from what i experienced...go what lots of users have good experiences with...you don't need the absolute fastest pc....how much synths are you actually gonna run you think?????
memory for samplers is nice....And...an slightly older system(still fast) is much cheaper....and pump it up with a nice gfx card and enough memory...install your shizzle, and start playing. ;-)

Probably other experiences here...but these were mine...

But...also in HW GaryB is tha man!!! he'll have some tips that worked for almost all of us.
Gary, we love you! We could not be without you man!

Cheers, Ray

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