MSI Z87-G43 PCI performance fails compared to similar ASUS

[erminardi]

Hi there,
I'm writing this post to share my experience with this following setup:

Motherboard: MSI Z87-G43
RAM: 4+8 GB kingston HyperX 1600
CPU: Intel Haswell Core i7-4770S - socket 1150
HDD system: SSD kingston 120GB
HDD samples: WD caviar green 1TB
PSU: Fanless PSU 500W
Heatsink: Nofan CR-80EH Copper IcePipe 80W Fanless CPU Cooler
OS: windows 7 pro x64 (last update)
Internet: absolutely not!!! (and no antivirus installed)
SCOPE SYSTEM: PCI based: Scope pro 14 DPS + Scope Home 3 DSP

regarding the pure CPU power and overall features this setup is a bomb, expecially:

- SSD (OS boot and operative in 7-10 seconds)
- CPU/ram power: I cannot say exactly how may VST are allowed, tons.
- stability: never had a crash
- silence: it is like to switch on a DVD player, the Caviar HDD is the only rotating device that makes very low noises.

regarding the Scope compatibility:
this is the main problem!
I bought this MB basing on PlanetZ advices that report good results with Z87 chipset and 1150 socket.
But sadly I discovered that this Motherboard features only 2-3 masterverbs, or a Minimax and a couple of effects, before starting to complain about PCI overflow.

I tried to clean PCI contacts, to change scope PCI slots, to use only one board, to increase PCI latency timer in BIOS, but nothing was resolutive.

I fear that I have to buy an Asus ASUS H87-PLUS (chazbloke said that it reaches 10 MAsterverbs) or an ASUS Z87C (Dante said that it reaches 10 Masterverbs).
But I find this very very strange because this ASUS Z87c seems exactly the same of my MSI model, same chipsets, same layout...
Maybe differnt implemetation and better drivers?
Who knows.

Any other similar experience/advice before buy another MB (sigh)?

Thanks in advance.

[dawman]

I think PCI implementation is going to become an issue over the next few years.
It seems legacy boards are offered, but getting worse in terms of bandwidth.

More money is spent on SLI and PCI-e, especially the recent connections to the CPU from then slots.
Offering Legacy makes sense and looks good, too bad they don't test their boards with 5v PCI cards before shipping them out.

[erminardi]

ASUS seems to be, in this case, more reliable.
Too bad because MSI was one of my preferred MB brand...

[garyb]

it's even possible that you had purchased a bad motherboard with a bad PCI controller.
i think it's something like 2-3% failure is considered excellent...or i read something like this before.
why don't you complain to MSI? it's their motherboard that is not working as it should. maybe they'll fix it. you did search for a bios update, right?

you do realize that PCI is called "legacy" now, right? that means that it is officially obsolete. slots on a new motherboard should still work, of course...

[erminardi]

"Legacy" should be meaning of "old, no more developed from last version, but working", not a huge step backward...

I'll do, thanks for the tip.

[erminardi]

Otherwise the next year companies will start to implement Legacy PCI slots without wiring them to anything
Just to have the feature "PCI" slot written on the box

[garyb]

i said that it should work, even if it's legacy....

the computer industry doesn't really care. if it's old, they don't want you to use it. if you use old stuff, you're not buying more stuff. computers are meant to be disposable. it's disgusting.

[dante]

Well, my 4 year old ASUS P5KE could run 14 master verbs, and this brand new ASUS Z87C runs 10.

So that's an average loss of 1 master verb bandwidth per year we are seeing


Well, in 2020 I should still be able to run 4 masterverbs

[erminardi]

Sadly, with my MSI we are already in 2020 :\
Dante so can you recommend the ASUS Z87C for me?
10 Masterverbs are enough as maximum performance.

[Bud Weiser]

Well, my 4 year old ASUS P5KE could run 14 master verbs, and this brand new ASUS Z87C runs 10.

So that's an average loss of 1 master verb bandwidth per year we are seeing


Well, in 2020 I should still be able to run 4 masterverbs

O.k., I see,...

in 10 years I retire w/o reverb,- no biggie !

What´s up w/ delay ?
Usable to delay retirement even 2020 ?



Bud

[dante]

Dante so can you recommend the ASUS Z87C for me?

Yeah, go for it. If you run MASTERIT though dont get the latest W8 build.

O.k., I see,... in 10 years I retire w/o reverb,- no biggie !
Bud

No, no retire, just we all forced to use Fra77 MasterverbX by 2024

[erminardi]

UPDATE: yesterday I tried to update some drivers and the BIOS, but nothing good happened...
After BIOS update, from a cold switch on, I was able to load 4-5 masterverbs, but suddenly the system has entered into his operating temperature and next I was able to load only 3 Masterverbs before the PCI overflow advice.
This system as is it is useful only for ASIO in/out operations, like a classic audio card, but no way to use more than a couple of FX or synths.
I found Softclip, delays, and reverbs much more susceptible to overflow than others devices.
In particular Softclip (one of the reason why I use Scope for mix!) is now a nightmare to load!

Today I will order the ASUS MB... the only annoying thing (apart this extra expense) is that I have to re-install everything again

[garyb]

did you get into every entry of the advanced power menu and make sure that the computer is all the way powered up all the time?

it's a longshot, asking that question, but it might be worth investigating.

i'm sorry to hear about your problems. that's no fun.

[erminardi]

Yes, Garyb, of course, I followed all your tips about setup (BIOS and OS).
Thanks again
I find also very annoying the recent trend from MB producer to activate in BIOS features that are very harmful for audio/video professionals.
If you don't switch off almost an half of BIOS features you will have a lot of digital audio noises in your monitors!
Another step backward masked as innovation...

[jksuperstar]

Along GaryB's advice, I also suggest you get a tool to *measure* the CPU and bus clocks. Despite having your BIOS set to disable those various features, if the system detects an overpower condition, it will still scale frequencies back (or die!). For example, if your heatsink or compound isn't on just right, it's possible to slow the cpu down as a result.

(my experience: I have a laptop that cannot run at full power when not plugged in. there is no indication that this is happening. However, SCOPE will crash, or I simply will not be able to run many masterverbs/low ULLI settings. If the power is plugged in, then all works just fine (this is how I found out my power plug was having an issue making connection!)

CPU-Z and ThrottleStop are two good tools to use for this purpose.

It's also possible the PCI Latency settings are just off. Use a tool like "PCI Latency Tool" to check and even change this. This may require more research for your particular board & card configuration.

[erminardi]

Very interesting post jksuperstar, thanks,
I tried every program you mentioned but the CPU is 100% working and stable, the average temperature is around 50°C (according also with the BIOS measurement) and PCI Latency Tool is not working on my system, I really dunno why.
Anyway I ordered yesterday the ASUSthen I can compare these 2 MB with the same components.
I will share ASAP (of course I need time to reinstall everything new from scratch).

Cheers, much appreciate

[erminardi]

Today I swapped the old MSI with the new ASUS, on the same OS (no reistall from scratch), but nothing changed

[jksuperstar]

We really need a Smilies for "Banging head against a wall".

That sucks, and I hope you find a resolution without having to perform in a circus!

[garyb]

well, then, i guess socket 1150 motherboards are out.
i don't know why they have worked for so many people and suddenly don't work.

[erminardi]

The overall performance is far better with ASUS, so the swap worths.
Now I can open infinite Sofclips, Delays, etc.
And I can reach 4 masterverbs, the 5 gives me the PCI advice.

Maybe I should reinstall everything new from scratch... maybe some old drivers/settings are a bad heritage from previuos MSI.

So moderately happy.