Buying an UPS

[guppy]

Hello
I'm thinking about buying an UPS, I want to have the cleanest source of electricity for my audio converters and preamps.
I got an electrician wich came last month to be sure that the installation was clean, but it's not enough, i always have some noises, from the neighborhood I think, because it's strongest early on the morning.
Nothing critical, but if I can work on it...

I understood that I need an UPS which can regulate voltage.
So off-line UPS seem not to be good as they don't regulate anything.
On-line ones seem to have clean regulate output, but are much more expensive.
But what about line-interactive ones ? are they adapted for audio usage and eliminate noises from electricity (220V, I live in France) ?

Can you help me to understand how to have a clean output and with which kind of UPS ?
Is an on-line UPS the best way to avoid bad noises from local electricity ?

Thanks !

[astroman]

a ups is intended to keep power up if supply fails
additionally it can buffer some high spikes, too
... and it may prevent some interferences just because it's in the way
(applies to 'standard' devices)

there's also gear with significant filtering coming at additional costs
(supply in health care comes to mind)

but as a ups is doing a lot of regulation, it also may generate a lot of noise
(because audio isn't what designers have in mind in the first place)

it largely depends on your specific situation, I just wanted to mention those points

cheers, Tom

[guppy]

I just want my preamps and converters to be the quietest possible and free of bad noises.
Have you got any idea for the best way to do it ? Is there another way to avoid noises coming from the neighborood trafic ?
I thought an on-line inverter (or UPS, I don't know which word is the most adapted) should be fine, as it generates by itself 230V from the cells, opposed to line-interactive which just regulates the tension ?

As I said, i had a good electrician who worked on it, and he reduced massively the amount of noise. I know it will never be perfect, but i'd like to do everything (not too expensive ) to approach perfection

[garyb]

an inverter that doesn't output a true sine wave will be noisy as all get out. an ups can buffer the ac, but usually it just provides emergency power. that would be good for shutdown during power outage but wouldn't do much otherwise. there are line conditioners that will assure a steady output at a specific voltage, and even filter noise, but a product like that would be expensive for anything useful. installing a seperate line and breaker that all your music gear and only your music gear is connected to, and properly grounding the building, should fix almost everything. it's good that you're already down this road.

[astroman]

if you have massive electric pollution around you (heavy machinery, electric railways) there's no easy solution.
in such cases you may consider battery power for such gear (which doesn't consume too much current)
(but I remember faintly having read somewhere that a battery is not as noisefree as one would expect)
anyway...
for phantom power you'd need 4 rechargeable 12V lead batteries cascaded
most (audio) circuits can run from 18V as supplied by 3 6V batteries
the problem: you'd have to modify your gear (which may be difficult if non standard voltages are used internally)

or build your own energy supply based on lead batteries as used in cars....
it goes this way: get a battery and a high power car amplifier (no need for super hifi)
build (or get) a 50hz sine generator, it's not a very sophisticated device
feed the sine into the amp, crank it up to almost maximum and measure the output AC voltage
(let's assume 40V)
Then you need a 1:6 upstep transformer, which will turn it into 240 V
That's your supply power for the sensitive gear
take care for proper dimensioning... check how much your preamps will consume (shouldn't be too much)
Use an amplifier that can deliver 2 or 3 times this load as permanent sine wave.

use transformer isolated connection to the rest of your gear
(otherwise pollution will sneak in via the outputs)

cheers, Tom
(I know this is insane, but... it's possible...)

warning: that thing is AS DEADLY as the main wall outlet on the output side of the transformer !!!
don't do it if your not absolutely sure about every single step.
have someone build it for you who is officially certified in that domain, your insurance won't pay...

[Bud Weiser]

...there are line conditioners that will assure a steady output at a specific voltage, and even filter noise, but a product like that would be expensive for anything useful.

For the sensitive (and probably portable) gear,- I´d buy a Furman power stabilizer/line conditioner 1HU rackmount.
Something like this:
http://www.thomann.de/gb/furman_p1400_ar_e.htm

That´s the europaen version,- 230V x 6A = 1380 watts per hr.

Yes that´s not cheap, but compact, works and is much more lightweigt than any UPS which includes lead acid batteries.
Every UPS w/ 1300 watts spec and being rackmount weights up to 20 kilos and the Furman is only 8 kilos.
Larger UPS up to 5000 watts and for the complete studio weight up to 100 kilos and are extremely expensive.

When there´s a power outage,- everything is shut down,- PA, lights and no one can play anymore.
In my opinion, the Furman is enough to protect a keyboard rig, XITE-1, AD/DA, MIDI interface and a rackmount computer or laptop.
When using a laptop,- it has it´s rechargeable battery itself and it´s that piece of gear w/ the longest boot time.
So, if one takes care for the battery is always fully loaded, the laptop will never shut down because it automaticly switches to battery when the power is gone.
A small, much cheaper and more lightweight UPS (Triplite) just only for XITE would help it also never shuts down and together w/ the laptop, so no project reload and loadtimes at all.

Bud

[garyb]

i have a Furman....

the 1u is not sufficient for the whole studio and possibly not even for the computer alone imo. i think you need a bigger conditioner.

[jhulk]

for quiet supply you need some large caps some suppressors for spikes and a clean earth

clean earth is an extra earth rod separate from the electrical supply

most electrical systems use the negative earth system as a star earth point at the transformer

the reason why they did this is because

the original power cable the 3 phase 10kva and 3kva supplies were paper leads and were oil filled and also cheap grade steal wire earth sheath cables was used

these started to corrode and the earth connection was lost so instead of having to do new cable runs they used the neutral conductor as a secondary earth

problem with this is any spikes that are caused are also on the earth line

lots of electronic equipment use earth for 0v and this is were the problems come in and spikes or noise are on the ov line

on linear supplies its not that much of a problem as they use toroidal transformers and the incoming earth is not connected but a center tap on the secondary windings teroidal transformers stop a lot of the noise but linear supplies are less efficient

and you need to make a switching system for 110 and 240 operation which is just a linking series switch

but many prefer the switch mode psu as 1 psu is all you need to work in any country which equals cheapness

the problem with switch-mode psu they are very noisy

now adding a separate earth rod and connecting all you musical equipment earth to this

its not expensive rod is about £20 and then you need some 25mm earth cable and a separate fuse board in your studio room

then you can fit an insulated earth bar and connect all the earth of your power sockets in your studio room to this insulated earth bar and the earth rod cable is connected to this

this will give you a clean earth

then you need to add the suppressors across the live terminals live to neutral live to earth and neutral to earth these need to go on your incoming mains supply these catch all the transient spikes that occur biggest spikes occur when tv programs finish and every one switches on a kettle theres a surge for electricity so that the companies put out higher wattage to cope its when all the kettles switch of is the problem they are still outputting wattage which becomes a surge and then the spikes happen

uk voltage being 240 or its supposed to be 220 in line with Europe but they say a +/- 10-20% margin

if you test a uk supply it can be any thing from 230 to 250v depending where you live and how close you are to a power station

[Bud Weiser]

i have a Furman....

Which model ? The same I mentioned ?

the 1u is not sufficient for the whole studio and possibly not even for the computer alone imo. i think you need a bigger conditioner.

I have 2 of the older Furman line conditioners, 1HU,- and these are just only better rack lights and power distributors doing some filtering.

But the one above isn´t a (or one of these) line conditioner(s) only,-
it´s a power stabilizer for a load of 6 amperes/230V/1380w AND a line conditioner.

My 4HU rackmount computer works w/ a Corsair 520 watt PSU but probably needs only 450 watts or less.
Alyseum AL-88 = 3 watts
Ethernet switch = 5 watts
Xite-1 = 40 watts @max
Nuendo/RME AD/DA = 30 watts
Kurzweil PC361 = 25 watts
88 weighted keys Digital Piano = 30 watts
76-key masterkeyboard = 8 watts (but will be replaced by Nektar Panorama P6 Reason controller soon)
Edirol PCR300 controller (USB bus-powered)

let´s say,- 600 watts all in all ... 780 watts left for powering Bryston 3B Pro (400W max.) w/ passive Tannoy monitor speakers and 2x 22" Samsung screens (70W each = 140W).

240 watts left ...

keyboard mixer front end for XITE-1 = 40 watts (Mackie 1604 actually)
- but becomes obsolete w/ Ferrofish A16mkII replacing Nuendo/RME AD/DA (see above)

So, there´s enough power left for Minimoog D, Obie Xpander and Yammi TG77 FM rack module,- the only vintage stuff I want to keep up to now.
All my other gear will be sold one day and is actually switched off.
My mic gets phantom power from XITE-1.

The gear above incl. all the software (SCOPE, VST and Reason 6.x) allows arranging and recording everything I need,- and that´s a studio for me,- which can be used for gigging too by using other passive speakers or IEM.

I think that works w/ the Furman model I mentioned because the power consumption of the complete system is ~ 1250 watts w/ all the gear in use.

If I´d want a UPS in addition, I´d buy a 3000VA APC rackmount 2HU and just only for the studio room,- not live usage because of the weight.

Everyone who uses more gear simultaneously needs bigger power stabilizer/line conditioner, that´s true,- or several of these Furmans.
It depends on the price then.

Bud

[garyb]

those things will draw more current than that during peaks. that conditioner should be three times the current rating of the mentioned Furman box. the Furman box is rated liberally.

i have an AR-1215 like this:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php? ... id=AR-1215

[guppy]

Thank you all for your ideas !
I don't understand everything because I'm not good anough with electricity
Some solutions seem more complicated for me than others
I thought that an online inverter was also a power regulator as the Furman ones.
We can find online inverter on the 2nd market which are less expensive, but I need at least 2 or 3 (1000VA I think, small ones), because the hardware is not all at the same place in my new setup.

What do you think about that?
http://www.apc.com/resource/include/tec ... ku=le1200i

[astroman]

just to make things clear:
do you have a problem with power dropping and changing level ?
that would be an application for the linked APC device which supports your full electricity installation

is the problem noise on the powerline that creeps into preamps ?
this is an entirely different thing
examples: a refrigerator on the same powerline (as your audio gear) will send spikes whenever the motor starts
a more severe version of this effect could be an elevator in the same house, polluting many lines
at the top of the scale would be an electric railway passing the house
sparks will emit electrical noise which freely travels through air and is picked up by any cable

for this class of problems you don't need a lot of power, as preamp/mixers don't draw a lot of current
but you need a good isolation and (in case of railways) also good shielding

as I think about it, you actually could drive a sine generator from a polluted powerline (no need for batteries)
(but that 'power source' will be free from line pollution)
Imho it's good (enough) to focus on the critical parts of pre-amplification. Line level signals are less sensitive.

you can achieve much with full balanced, ground free interconnection
(as they did in old studio gear - every stage was linked by a balanced transformer, even inside racks)

cheers, Tom

[Bud Weiser]

those things will draw more current than that during peaks. that conditioner should be three times the current rating of the mentioned Furman box. the Furman box is rated liberally.

i have an AR-1215 like this:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php? ... id=AR-1215

Thx for your input Gary.
Because I know you have the knowledge and experience and I now looked at the Furman model you use, I have some more questions because for me, it is hard to find the right power regulator (we call it stabilizer here) and line conditioning unit for my rig.
I see, the unit you´re using is 120V / 15A = 1800 watts,- is that correct ?
I think it´s important for me to be sure I calculate correctly because I have to deal w/ 230V and the amperes here.

Unfortunately, in germany I don´t have so many choices buying european versions of power protecting gear made in the US,- Furman or Triplite,- and the only other next level Furman product I´ve seen is this:
http://www.furmansound.com/product.php? ... P-6900-ARE

Problematic is, I have rented my house and cannot modify everything I want, 16A is what normally comes into germany´s houses and there is no 30 A connector power outlet except in concert halls or music clubs.

So,- in my house, I use 2 16A power lines,- one for all the normal purposes and the other for the studio room only.

Now above, you say "those things will draw more current than that during peaks" -

I´m interested in to know more precesely which of "those things" draw more current during peaks.
I doubt the keyboards or MIDI modules do,- but can imagine a computer does and a power amp too,- is that right ?

OTOH, I don´t understand (because I´m not a electrician) how a computer can draw more current than it´s PSU is specified for at max (520W in my case).
Up to now, my understanding is, when computer components draw more power than the PSU is able to deliver, it´s a underpowered machine and the fuses in the PSU blow.

When I calculate the power consumption of my computer,- mobo, 3 HDs, proc (95W TDP), Zahlman proc cooler, graphics card (30W / EVGA Gforce 9500) optical drive (only maxes out when burning media,- which means ~70W peak to me), floppy drive w/ card readers (rarely in use), 120mm & 80mm NB case fans, I assume that consumates about 300 watts at max.,- right ?

I´m very interested if I´m wrong or not,- so please correct me.

The Bryston 3B Pro power amp´s current draw is 400 watts at max. and only w/ 4 Ohms speakers connected, the amp delivering 200 watts RMS per channel then.
But my Tannoy speakers are 8 Ohms and the amp delivers 120 watts per channel into 8 Ohms.
To me, that means, it will never draw the 400 watts from the power line, even I´d crank it fully up, which I never do because the Tannoy dual concentric speaker´s rating is 50-60 watts at max..
But that´s the studio scenario and not live.
In a live scenario, it could be, there might be 4Ohms speakers connected, so this has to be calculated too.

So, now, when you say "that conditioner should be three times the current rating of the mentioned Furman box",- is that because of the headroom, the power-regulator/line-conditioner needs to be save itself ?

thx in advance

Bud

[garyb]

those wattage numbers indicate what a device OUTPUTS in wattage, not the current draw. these things are not 100% efficient. the computer supply at 520 watts PROVIDES that much juice. it draws more. the same with the amp, unless it's a 200 watt @ 4 ohm output, it likely draws more like 900-1200 watts at peak, while putting out about 450 watts to the speakers.

in addition, the power conditioners cannot regulate power as well as the current rises. the one space units cannot handle all of your gear at full load. they're fine for just the computer, though.

the balanced ac version of the Furman http://www.furmansound.com/product.php? ... P-2300-ITE would be a better choice for keeping the system happy and quiet than the big one you linked. i agree that it doesn't need to be able to handle so many amps, but you're on 220 volt lines, right? that makes a 15amp line 3300 watts at peak...

line regulation isn't that critical anyway unless the power in your area is subject to voltage sags and spikes. if you have the extra money, spend it, but first, spend the money on properly grounding the system. no box is going to fix a poorly grounded system. you'll need to use isolation transformers on everything if it's that bad, a huge expense compared to just running a better ground...

[guppy]

When the electrician came, He should have fix the ground, but not in the way that jhulk said I think (as I don't understand everything myself ).
He's working for industry, so I think he has made things well, maybe not as jhulk said.
I got less noises, but it's not as clean as I'd like.
The problem is that I can't spend now 1000euro for a conditioner like the Furman one
That's why I wanted to know if an online inverter could do the job. It's expensive, but easier to find in France than a 2nd hand furman conditioner.
I've seen that line-interactive is not good for supply a good sinus wave. Are the online ones ok ?

[Fluxpod]

These Furman Conditioners are a big joke.If you have power issues get a medium Ups for around 300 Bucks and move on.It should be fully Buffered.

You can put a 2 Meter Ground hook into your yard and have a second panel for the stuidi.Thats the more costy version.Thgese Power conditioners from various Builders wont fix shit.

[guppy]

to cut the cost, I've seen this line-interactive one:
http://www.rueducommerce.fr/Peripheriqu ... N-LINE.htm
But as I understand how it work (it doesn't react live but need time to switch to make the correction, as the cell doesn't supply directly the voltage), I'm not sure that it can do something to avoid noises from neighborhood.

[Fluxpod]

to cut the cost, I've seen this line-interactive one:
http://www.rueducommerce.fr/Peripheriqu ... N-LINE.htm
But as I understand how it work (it doesn't react live but need time to switch to make the correction, as the cell doesn't supply directly the voltage), I'm not sure that it can do something to avoid noises from neighborhood.

Those are ok.Better than any furscam product.

[guppy]

Hmmm
So there's 2 way to go there
Furman or UPS ?
Mac or PC ?
Sonic core or UAD
Is there some life on Mars ?!!

is the problem noise on the powerline that creeps into preamps ?

I don't know if the noise is coming from the neighborhood or from my house.
I've an electric panel for the studio, and a good power repartition (I think).
In fact, I don't have any "real problem", i just ant to make things better ...But as I said, early in the morning (between 5 and 9), I can have lots more of interference.
My electrician friend told me I wasn't too far from the power distribution in the neighborhood (I don't know how I must call it), so it shouldn't be a problem.

It's true that I can test the line-interactive inverter for 75euro, it's not a big deal. If it has any action, I could buy one more.

[Bud Weiser]

those wattage numbers indicate what a device OUTPUTS in wattage, not the current draw. these things are not 100% efficient. the computer supply at 520 watts PROVIDES that much juice. it draws more. the same with the amp, unless it's a 200 watt @ 4 ohm output, it likely draws more like 900-1200 watts at peak, while putting out about 450 watts to the speakers.

Ahh, o.k., now I understand, thank you !

the balanced ac version of the Furman http://www.furmansound.com/product.php? ... P-2300-ITE would be a better choice for keeping the system happy and quiet than the big one you linked. i agree that it doesn't need to be able to handle so many amps, but you're on 220 volt lines, right? that makes a 15amp line 3300 watts at peak...

thx for the link !
Ooops, 43 kilos ..., that´s what I feared because I planned to have it mobile ...

It also seems, peak wattage might be higher because the line is 230V - 240V here meanwhile.

line regulation isn't that critical anyway unless the power in your area is subject to voltage sags and spikes. if you have the extra money, spend it, but first, spend the money on properly grounding the system. no box is going to fix a poorly grounded system. you'll need to use isolation transformers on everything if it's that bad, a huge expense compared to just running a better ground...

You´re absolutely correct w/ the grounding.
It´ s not an issue here in a germany metropole and I can live without a power regulator/power conditioner in my house,- until I move next future which can be upcoming or overnext year.
Can be, I choose south europe warmer regions because I got an offer for a house this week and for the case I´d be able to realize that, I have to be prepared.
My idea was building a 1-rack studio/gigging rig I can move to elsewere, connect the controller-kbds and work (performing or recording) regardless what circumstances I´ll find.

Seems I´d have to live w/ the weight then.

Bud