New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

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dtb
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New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by dtb »

Hi all,

My bandmate bought a new PC but gets PCI-bandwith errors. he doesn't speak english so I offered him to put this help request on planetz ... I am a using RME stuff but do also own to pulsar 2 cards, so I am a little bit familier with scope ...

Ok, we did some testing on MY old system and everything worked as expected even a16 connected to one of my 2 pulsar cards. so I thing A16 should be OK.

Some info about the new PC:

Hardware:
ASUS P8P67, i7, 16 GB RAM,3 HD,Scope 15 DSP,A16 ultra,3 monitors 24",ATI Radeon 6700 series

Software:
Windows 7 64 bit,Cubase 64 bit,Scope 5.1,
Omnisphere, Trilian, RMX 64 bit plugins

BIOS already updated
graphics card driver up to date.
A16 checked on an old system - excellent

A16Ultra connected as slave to Scope card (Master) via ADAT. Sync via ADAT, 44,1 KHz.
All unnecessary Services disabled
all energy savings disabled (in Windows and BIOS)
bluetooth disabled, realtek audio disabled, usb 3.0 support disabled, 1394a disabled ...

Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached
1. we get this message even with only 8 channel connections routed directly inout (without any other mnodules, synths ...
2. Using the scopecard alone works like a charm
3. wihout starting cubase we are also able to load many modules.

as soon as we start cubase the possibility to chrash/get the above error message increases. we can provoke the error just by playing on the keyboard (e.g. modulation wheel ) and sending midi. after a few seconds the message appears. sometimes the pc even crashes (BSOD :-(

We have already contacted SC support - no way ... they cant't help.

any ideas, hints on what we could do?
should we try 32-bit cubase?does that make sense?
Is there a way to force the systems to use an interrupt exclusively for the slot with the card (ASUS manual shows serveral "shared" in the IRQ-matrix)
greetz
tom

attached 2 pics of routing an error message
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garyb
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by garyb »

sorry. sandy bridge motherboards and processors do NOT work well with pci cards. they don't have REAL pci slots. the pci bus is tacked onto the pci-e bus and it has very limited bandwidth. the manufacturers of the boards(and intel with the chipset design) never expected anyone to be using a high performance realtime audio pci card with those systems.

it's unfortunate that everyone thinks they need the latest model(since older models have almost the exact same performance for most users). this is how the computer world works. he'll either need to downgrade his computer to a socket 1156 or 775 machine, run a different card, or sell his pci cards and get an XITE.
maky325
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by maky325 »

garyb wrote:sorry. sandy bridge motherboards and processors do NOT work well with pci cards. they don't have REAL pci slots. the pci bus is tacked onto the pci-e bus and it has very limited bandwidth. the manufacturers of the boards(and intel with the chipset design) never expected anyone to be using a high performance realtime audio pci card with those systems.

it's unfortunate that everyone thinks they need the latest model(since older models have almost the exact same performance for most users). this is how the computer world works. he'll either need to downgrade his computer to a socket 1156 or 775 machine, run a different card, or sell his pci cards and get an XITE.
I don't get it Gary? Who told you that intel wasn't expecting anyone to use "high performance realtime audio pci card". From my perspective it seems like a nonsense. I wouldn't questioning your always nice help but this time i have my own experience. I had two scope cards (PCI) with two (yes two) A16 ultras connected(and active) to my P8P67 Pro. Running i7 2600k heavily overclocked. System was ultra stable then, but i sold my scope card yet again (you already know this funny story) and it is ultra stable to this day (not running any DSP at the moment - i am upgrading to socket 2011 and i7 3930 because i have different orientation now - 3d architectural visualization).

Prior to that i had 775 and it was stable just the same way as 1156. I can't help OP but i can claim that my rig was ultra stable on 1156 socket.

After that (after i sold scope cards) i was running one Powercore X8 (firewire on board) with combination of another Powercore PCI (not pcie) card inside and with UAD-Duo. Never had any problem. None! No any kind of weird PCI errors. I was able to fill each device to maximum (tested with Access Virus unlimited). Again i can't help OP but i can claim that i7 rig on socket 1156 is ultra stable and running at 4,6 ghz on air cooling. I can post photos if needed. There aren't any PCI flaws. And you can browse various forums, plenty of people with RME, or whatever brand you like, use 1156 without any issues.

Giving advice to someone to make step backward in technology just to use something esoteric isn't sounding good imho (but sometimes it can be only solution). DTB you should try to test your configuration on some different setup. i bet someone from your local friends is able to help you.
fokas
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by fokas »

Well I truly understand your frustration ....
I like the idea of an I7 2600K too so im going to get one BUT with a C206 chipset actually an ASUS P8B WS .
The C206 boasts native PCI SUPPORT the drawback is only one PCI port.
There are some unique features but more of that if everything works out.

Regards to all Daniel
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garyb
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by garyb »

maky325 if you read my post again, you'll see that i spoke about socket 1155 processors and motherboards(which is what an Asus P8P67 is).
1156 and 775 processors and motherboards run great.

the A16s make no difference in this case, what so ever.
dtb
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by dtb »

Hi all!

thanks so much for trying to help ...
I also have a P8P67 /Deluxe) connected to RME Fireface 800. Everything works fine here.

Somehow I am afraid of telling my friend that his motherboard doesn't work well with the scope card (as gary pointed out already) ...
what kinda mobo would be an alternative? he shurely would like to use all the other components (graphics card, RAM 16 gb ...) with a new mobo ... any advices?

is getting an XITE really an alternative? I don't have one so I am not able to check it out BEFORE I recommend to buying one.

DTB you should try to test your configuration on some different setup. i bet someone from your local friends is able to help you.
garyb wrote:sorry. sandy bridge motherboards and processors do NOT work well with pci cards. they don't have REAL pci slots. the pci bus is tacked onto the pci-e bus and it has very limited bandwidth. the manufacturers of the boards(and intel with the chipset design) never expected anyone to be using a high performance realtime audio pci card with those systems.

it's unfortunate that everyone thinks they need the latest model(since older models have almost the exact same performance for most users). this is how the computer world works. he'll either need to downgrade his computer to a socket 1156 or 775 machine, run a different card, or sell his pci cards and get an XITE.
I don't get it Gary? Who told you that intel wasn't expecting anyone to use "high performance realtime audio pci card". From my perspective it seems like a nonsense. I wouldn't questioning your always nice help but this time i have my own experience. I had two scope cards (PCI) with two (yes two) A16 ultras connected(and active) to my P8P67 Pro. Running i7 2600k heavily overclocked. System was ultra stable then, but i sold my scope card yet again (you already know this funny story) and it is ultra stable to this day (not running any DSP at the moment - i am upgrading to socket 2011 and i7 3930 because i have different orientation now - 3d architectural visualization).

Prior to that i had 775 and it was stable just the same way as 1156. I can't help OP but i can claim that my rig was ultra stable on 1156 socket.

After that (after i sold scope cards) i was running one Powercore X8 (firewire on board) with combination of another Powercore PCI (not pcie) card inside and with UAD-Duo. Never had any problem. None! No any kind of weird PCI errors. I was able to fill each device to maximum (tested with Access Virus unlimited). Again i can't help OP but i can claim that i7 rig on socket 1156 is ultra stable and running at 4,6 ghz on air cooling. I can post photos if needed. There aren't any PCI flaws. And you can browse various forums, plenty of people with RME, or whatever brand you like, use 1156 without any issues.

"DTB you should try to test your configuration on some different setup." -> We will do some further testing maybe with my pc (same mobo as mentioned above) and we'll try to use his system with my fireface and see what happens (A16 connected to FF800) ...

OK - thanks to all so far!
Cheers
Tom
maky325
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by maky325 »

garyb wrote:maky325 if you read my post again, you'll see that i spoke about socket 1155 processors and motherboards(which is what an Asus P8P67 is).
1156 and 775 processors and motherboards run great.

the A16s make no difference in this case, what so ever.
No problem! My bad. I was under impression that you are saying how generally all i7 mobos aren't good which is not true.

Since this is somewhat on topic i have a question for you or for anyone reading this:

Guys did anyone of you tried or have running xite D (or big xite) with two A16 simultaneously ? I am interested in that configuration and would like to know more about it. You know via z-link and optical..

Will this "saturate" inside DSP connections too quickly (something people are speaking about here) and will i get into troubles if using two A16 and wanting to use some of the Scope synths at the same time?
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garyb
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by garyb »

the socket 1155 motherboard and processor with the p67 chipset is the problem. the only possible solution, if he wants to use the pci card, is to sell the motherboard and processor and go with a socket 1156 solution.

yes! the XITE is a definite solution. it works the same way as the pci cards, but it uses the pci-e bus instead. the p67 and corresponding motherboards and processors work very nicely with it. in use, he won't notice much difference in the way things work compared to his pci card, except that the XITEs sound so much better and have much more power(even the XITE-1D is 2 1/2 times the power of his 15dsp card).

be brave and tell him. it's better to face the truth and suffer for a minute than to avoid it and suffer forever. :)

maky, there's no trouble using 2 A16s with the XITE.
maky325
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by maky325 »

garyb wrote:the socket 1155 motherboard and processor with the p67 chipset is the problem. the only possible solution, if he wants to use the pci card, is to sell the motherboard and processor and go with a socket 1156 solution.
Uhmm...didn't i just said above that i have used this board with extreme success and literally ZERO problem with two scope cards and TWO A16 ultras. Read above what i said.

And here is technical description of my mobo:

http://www.asus.com/Motherboards/Intel_ ... /#overview

It is P67 and it is socket 1155. Clearly it worked flawless and still working (but i don't have cards anymore). I don't know how to help him but i can say that i NEVER do any supposedly DAW optimization tuning at OS level or anything like that. It just worked. I never had gigabyte mobos, always using asus. Too bad i don't have any advice. These days all vendors do some sort of clever and intelligent auto overclocking and similar nonsense. Maybe it's something about it. If there is any way to turn of these intelligent booster maybe he should start with that.

Thanks for info about two working A16.
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by garyb »

if you have a p67 board, it may or may not work.

there is NO native pci support on that chipset. a third party chip controls the pci bus and there are many problems. where are you hearing this from? it might just be S|C technical support.

one could always try bios updates, and even another of the same motherboard, they seem to be variable. i'd call them a no-go, especially if you want to run a reverb or two.

one will definitely need to check for anything that shares an irq with the Scope card(s) and disable it if it's usb or something that won't be used. also the usual i3,i5,i7 bios tweaks need to be done, disabling:
Intel EIST
Intel C State
C1E Support
Overspeed Protection
Hyperthreading
Execute Bit Support
Set Limit CPUID MaxVal to 3 (maybe not so important)
Intel Virtual Tech
Intel VT-d Tech

there's nothing else to do. if the bus doewsn't work correctly, then it doesn't work. on a p67, the pci bus is for legacy soundblasters and network cards. you are expected to buy new pci-e expansions, that's how the computer business works.

the thing is, a socket 1156 motherboard and processor would have been equally powerful in real life use with audio apps.

what the hell are the technical specs of the board that you don't use a Scope card with supposed to do for me? do you think i don't know what that motherboard is? it's nice that yours worked, but there are many more people who have been terribly disappointed by that chipset's pci performance, which may be the worst of any motherboard ever manufactured since the dawn of the pentium. usually, they DO work, but they never work well, not compared to 1156 and 775 machines that are really just as fast for most audio uses. if you're using massive amounts of samples or playing video games or doing video rendering, the sandybridge machines may be an advantage, but not for 99% of audio work. for this reason, i never recommend a sandybridge machine for a pci card.
dtb
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by dtb »

Hi,

Thanks to all of you for the info and taking the time. Very helpfull!
I will tell my friend what has been discussed here and talk about all hints and advices.
Have a nice weekend!
Tom
maky325
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by maky325 »

garyb wrote:if you have a p67 board, it may or may not work.



what the hell are the technical specs of the board that you don't use a Scope card with supposed to do for me? do you think i don't know what that motherboard is? it's nice that yours worked, but there are many more people who have been terribly disappointed by that chipset's pci performance, which may be the worst of any motherboard ever manufactured since the dawn of the pentium. usually, they DO work, but they never work well, not compared to 1156 and 775 machines that are really just as fast for most audio uses. if you're using massive amounts of samples or playing video games or doing video rendering, the sandybridge machines may be an advantage, but not for 99% of audio work. for this reason, i never recommend a sandybridge machine for a pci card.
Oh my...

I am not sure are you pointing these questions to me or not. What do you think about it may or may not work.?!?? I think you went way bellow average common sense in spreading these rumors. Here i'll provide my claims and will actually support them with links from intel.

But for start:

My machine isn't some strange blue martian computer from outer space and i am not any kind of wizard. I provided technical spec because i was thinking that you are misunderstanding what i posted. That was all about it. Clearly as hell two scope boards worked as WELL as other DSP hardware from various different companies. Everything WORKED on my p67 but let us say that i lie about it here or spreading some sort of nonsense because of some strange reason (which i am not even aware of)..

I am not sure from where are you pulling these very very weird assumptions which doesn't provide any logic. Since you are telling these weird things it looks like i am talking nonsense so it's better for you to back up your claims. Because i'll do mine.

I can provide you two links. For fresh start one is http://www.kvraudio.com one is http://www.gearslutz.com. Both places are forum meeting places but they are very different. What is important here is that these places are where various people, amateurs, pro musicians and really all kind of audio people meets and discuss things. Literally thousands of them.

Now again i am not sure where do you pulling your nonsense but you can use "search" functions at these forums and you'll find literally hundreds of people with hundreds of different setup machines with one common report. People rave about i7 performance, especially i7 2600k. No one EVER complained about his setup working strange on P67 or that someone has some weird PCI errors. No one. Sure you'll find some issues but they are mostly because of flawed MB. Just use search and seek for "i upgraded my system to sandy bridge" or something like it. You'll find hundreds of report and overall 95% of people (very same people which are using their computers for DAW) rave about blazing performance in audio. What's important is that they are all using different hardware, DSP, PCI cards and whatnot. Conclusion - clearly it's working

But let us say that even they lie about it.

Take this..Dude some top DAW computer workstation companies are now selling complete DAW worksations with i72600k (which is so socket 1155) ranging from P67 to z68 chipset. Here i'll provide you a link of a few:

http://www.endpcnoise.com/cgi-bin/e/std/sku=daw_pc

And here is one from well know seller 3XS Scan:

http://3xs.scan.co.uk/Category.asp?Syst ... tegoryID=2

And there are MANY more..

If you look closer they (3xscan) are selling quite a few 1155 configurations. Search for PowerDAW product. They don't have P67 anymore but they had and you can mail them. Clearly they had thousands of them at the beginning of the year. Only reason why they are now including z68 is obvious pure marketing because we all know that people always want latest numbers and (here comes the fun part) Z68 is FACK*** SAME CHIPSET with same architecture towards PCI and PCIe lanes. Only difference is

1. Integrated graphics support
2. Use of Quicksync for video transcoding
3. SSD Caching

Everything else regarding architecture is SAME!!!! PCI (i mean lack of) and PCI-E Same!!! General logical architecture is SAME. Oh look you can find info on...wait...Intel website..

http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ ... ipset.html
http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/ ... ipset.html

Needless to say that there are various companies which use and sell Z68 with both PCI and PCIE slots in just the very same way like P67. Asus, MSI, Gigabyte, Asrock to name a few.

And there are literally NUMEROUS reviews which will tell you same thing about P67 vs z68

Which support my claims. There is nothing wrong with P67 or any kind of 1155 chipset. They are working flawless for any kind of job.

I think that only you think that computer musicians are some sort of esoteric people which use their computers in the way intel could not figure out. I mean what the hell of a claim is that? That's even not funny anymore.

You are starting to sound like one of these people which claim that Windows 98 OS is last operating system which ever worked and everything else is technology flaw.

In the end let me ask you one simple thing - Do you really think that all these normal people/users, all these various companies would sell something which is good only for gaming task and something which have PCI flaw which is obvious only for musicians and their tasks? Come on dude? What went wrong with you?

For some odd reason you are telling people to go step back and downgrade their computers...for what? To get xite working? Or what? If that's the case then someone at SC should address issue (i am not saying there is one), not people buying older machines. I simply can't understand..
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by garyb »

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH AN 1155 MOBO FOR A DAW, UNLESS YOU WANT TO USE A SCOPE PCI CARD IN WHICH CASE IT IS NOT RECOMMENDED.

YOU ARE WELCOME TO BUY ONE, BUT IF YOU FIND THAT PCI PERFORMANCE IS BAD, YOU WILL HAVE TO LIVE WITH IT.


THIS IS SONICCORE TELLING YOU THIS.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT PCI IS NO LONGER NATIVELY SUPPORTED IN THE CHIPSET, AS SHOWN BY THE POSTED GRAPHICS WHICH ONLY HAVE PCI-E PIPELINES SHOWN, NO PCI SHOWN. THAT'S BECAUSE THESE CHIPSETS REQUIRE A THIRD PARTY CHIP FOR PCI SUPPORT. THIS IS NO SECRET.

NOW DO AS YOU PLEASE!
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by garyb »

In the end let me ask you one simple thing - Do you really think that all these normal people/users, all these various companies would sell something which is good only for gaming task and something which have PCI flaw which is obvious only for musicians and their tasks? Come on dude? What went wrong with you?
what's wrong with you?

YES, they sell things that are good for the overwhelming majority of their users. Scope cards are unique in the way that they use the pci bus. what percentage of the total computer userbase do you think Scope users represent? in case you hadn't noticed, pci is nearly discontinued.

For some odd reason you are telling people to go step back and downgrade their computers...for what? To get xite working? Or what? If that's the case then someone at SC should address issue (i am not saying there is one), not people buying older machines. I simply can't understand..
AGAIN, I'M TALKING ABOUT PCI CARDS, NOT XITE! XITE IS PCI-E AND IT DOES NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM.
maky325
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by maky325 »

garyb wrote:
In the end let me ask you one simple thing - Do you really think that all these normal people/users, all these various companies would sell something which is good only for gaming task and something which have PCI flaw which is obvious only for musicians and their tasks? Come on dude? What went wrong with you?
what's wrong with you?

YES, they sell things that are good for the overwhelming majority of their users. Scope cards are unique in the way that they use the pci bus. what percentage of the total computer userbase do you think Scope users represent? in case you hadn't noticed, pci is nearly discontinued.

For some odd reason you are telling people to go step back and downgrade their computers...for what? To get xite working? Or what? If that's the case then someone at SC should address issue (i am not saying there is one), not people buying older machines. I simply can't understand..
AGAIN, I'M TALKING ABOUT PCI CARDS, NOT XITE! XITE IS PCI-E AND IT DOES NOT HAVE THIS PROBLEM.
No no no what's wrong with you?

Again i am also talking about PCI cards. Didn't i just said that they worked, old UAD (PCI) is working, Powercore is working, everything is working. Don't try to twist my words. Read again what are your recommendations. You have just said that socket 1155 and P67 chipset is " the worst of any motherboard ever manufactured since the dawn of the pentium." It's pure nonsense. You just said that these cipsets are good only for gaming. Yet major DAW workstations builders are selling them. Thousands of people related to music is using these motherboards.

And you are recommending people to buy older rigs. I reacted because this IS NOT TRUE! Simply not true! And i backed up my claims regarding your supposedly worst motherboard since the dawn of pentium.

You are spreading false information.

Now go down and made apology to other people (i don't need it) because you are clearly spreading false information regarding computer chipset and upgrade advice.
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by garyb »

i'll NOT apologise.

my info is good and proper, and i haven't told anyone to do anything bad.
i've made my warning and i don't really care if you agree with it.

the info is factual, the PCI bus is NOT natively supported with the p67 and it IS one of the worst performing chipsets(for PCI performance ONLY) since the pentium, true.

oh, and by the way, socket 775 and 1156 motherboards are STILL produced, so i'm not telling people to buy obsolete hardware. what i AM saying is that socket 1155 is NOT recommended for Scope PCI cards, but that they MIGHT work depending on circumstance. i said that those chipsets WERE for gaming, yes, but i didn't say that's all they were good for. the point was that they were NOT for high volume PCI traffic. i would certainly use a socket 1155 processor and motherboard for a new system, UNLESS it's for Scope PCI cards. in fact, i just put together a socket 1155 computer for the NAMM show.

i'm not twisting anyone's arm, the Scope cards are longer lived and more useful than any motherboard(if you like Scope cards), so it makes sense to put them where they'll be the happiest, not where penis measuring shows the most awesome new technology to be. again, if you want to buy what is NOT recommended, GO AHEAD! if it works well, I'M HAPPY FOR YOU! i will NOT stop telling people that it's not a great idea though, because it isn't. that's based on way more people's experiences and complaints than your happy machine.

if you want to tell people that YOU have had great luck with such a machine, go right ahead, but there's no reason for you to flame me while you're at it. I'M the one who has to answer tech support emails from poor suckers who find that their new machine performs much worse than their old one. again, for PCI Scope cards, socket 1155 motherboards are NOT recommended, but you're welcome to use one if you so choose. now that the warning has been made, i expect NO complaints from users who are disappointed.
fokas
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by fokas »

Dear maky325,
What Gary is saying is true and proper .SCOPE pci cards need a lot of bandwidth that uad and powercore dont.This issue had come up many times more or less in the past with
other chipsets/Motherboards.
Gary has devoted a lot of his time on researching and helping .Maybe the newer X79 chipsets are ok maybe a 2600k on a c206 chipset will be ... I dont know yet .
I believe that everyone here is committed to protecting each others investment .

Regards to all Danny
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by next to nothing »

on a sidenote, there are 1155 motherboards with native PCI, allthough i have not tested any. Q67, Q65, B65, c206, c204 and c202 all have native pci support from what i can see.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.
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garyb
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by garyb »

they may be very good, who knows?

anyone testing those chipsets should let us all know what happens.
fokas
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Re: New PC -> Error: PCI Bandwidth limit reached - HELP!

Post by fokas »

hopefully next week a c206 ...
One pci bus ......only
asus p8b WS
RTA Danny
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