MUBACO V - unchanged release-version 1
Hi Martin
I've tested the MUBACO V sat+ Ultra and the ordinary MUBACO V. It was a bit difficult for me to test your device. Eighter i don't understand your logic or there are a few things not working properly or at least not like i thought they should.
Yes, i somehow got some nice sounds, but don't ask me how i did it
I'd like to use it as a mastering tool, so there's definitively a lack of usability in this stadium... sorry, i couldn't say more at this point than the few points below:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Functionality (in general do it just a bit more like optimaster)
- an in- AND output meter for each band to make it possible to adjust band gain properly (now it's the output, right?), because how could i set the treshold right if i even don't know the input value?
- and/or an automake-up function on each band
- a bypass and a solo button for each band instead the on/off button which i don't understand how it works or if it could be a bug, see below...
- a bypass and a solo mode for the Ultra section
- more accurate level meters for all meters. on optimaster the green section starts at -10db, mubaco at -5db.
Bugs?
- band gain (below Ratio) is meant to be as a makeup gain after compression, isnt't it? Then why does this affect the compression level?
- when i only activate band 1 with the button just above the treshold knob (20 Hz to say 200 Hz), why do i hear more than only this range?
- this leads me to the suspicion that the frequency splitter does not work properly?
- what's the reason to put the Ultra section before the bands?
- in the "normal" version, if i set the compressor and everything to zero, i can hear some phase shifting when pushing the mute button. not in a bad way, but it shouldn't be there, right?
- the level meters are showing false informations. optimaster says -5db and mubaco says -20db? even if those are output meters, if i set everything to zero/bypass they should be at the same value.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, this is it for the moment. hope not to have shocked you too much
cheers
Roman
I've tested the MUBACO V sat+ Ultra and the ordinary MUBACO V. It was a bit difficult for me to test your device. Eighter i don't understand your logic or there are a few things not working properly or at least not like i thought they should.
Yes, i somehow got some nice sounds, but don't ask me how i did it
I'd like to use it as a mastering tool, so there's definitively a lack of usability in this stadium... sorry, i couldn't say more at this point than the few points below:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Functionality (in general do it just a bit more like optimaster)
- an in- AND output meter for each band to make it possible to adjust band gain properly (now it's the output, right?), because how could i set the treshold right if i even don't know the input value?
- and/or an automake-up function on each band
- a bypass and a solo button for each band instead the on/off button which i don't understand how it works or if it could be a bug, see below...
- a bypass and a solo mode for the Ultra section
- more accurate level meters for all meters. on optimaster the green section starts at -10db, mubaco at -5db.
Bugs?
- band gain (below Ratio) is meant to be as a makeup gain after compression, isnt't it? Then why does this affect the compression level?
- when i only activate band 1 with the button just above the treshold knob (20 Hz to say 200 Hz), why do i hear more than only this range?
- this leads me to the suspicion that the frequency splitter does not work properly?
- what's the reason to put the Ultra section before the bands?
- in the "normal" version, if i set the compressor and everything to zero, i can hear some phase shifting when pushing the mute button. not in a bad way, but it shouldn't be there, right?
- the level meters are showing false informations. optimaster says -5db and mubaco says -20db? even if those are output meters, if i set everything to zero/bypass they should be at the same value.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ok, this is it for the moment. hope not to have shocked you too much
cheers
Roman
My view on the points:
Functionality (in general do it just a bit more like optimaster)
Hm. I don't like the optimaster - workflow for own settings. The wizard is very nice, it sounds nice, but if you want to tweak values it's very slow...
- an in- AND output meter for each band to make it possible to adjust band gain properly (now it's the output, right?), because how could i set the treshold right if i even don't know the input value?
??? You have the treshold meter for every band. This shows how treshold works. I don't like too many meters personally.
- and/or an automake-up function on each band
Autogain is always a compromise. Autogain only makes sense if I know your taste how different bands are 'normal' for your ear. It's just bad, to have high bands at same (visual) level as bass.
- a bypass and a solo button for each band instead the on/off button which i don't understand how it works or if it could be a bug, see below...
The device sounds (for my taste) much better than finaliza and other devices which use bandsplitting. Listen to single bands of optimaster and you will hear that is also lets through much more then just a mathmatical specified frequency-spectrum.
It's not a bug. I tried different filters and this combination was (for my ears) the best sounding & yes, the bands let through more then just 20-200 or 200-1000 ... In fact this avoids audible phaseproblems
- a bypass and a solo mode for the Ultra section
bypass yes. Solo not possible, cause values depend on the compressor setting. It is a compressor before compressor with (more or less ) 'Intelligent' settings. So here you have the answer, why in the ultra version gain influences more then just output-gain. I will NEVER satisfy everyones needs with such a special thing, so i won't try that. I like that ultra-modus much.
- more accurate level meters for all meters. on optimaster the green section starts at -10db, mubaco at -5db.
I use standard output meters. I think that's again a metter of taste (and for me graphical power). MOVEQ+ has totally different meters which have manually set values. They also differ much from optimaster.
- band gain (below Ratio) is meant to be as a makeup gain after compression, isnt't it? Then why does this affect the compression level?
See above
- when i only activate band 1 with the button just above the treshold knob (20 Hz to say 200 Hz), why do i hear more than only this range?
See above
- this leads me to the suspicion that the frequency splitter does not work properly?
It is not a 'hardcore' frequency splitter. This avoids phase problems as they are obvious in devices which use the 'standard' splitter.
- what's the reason to put the Ultra section before the bands?
It is bandcompressor before band-compressors.
- in the "normal" version, if i set the compressor and everything to zero, i can hear some phase shifting when pushing the mute button. not in a bad way, but it shouldn't be there, right?
Could you specifie that more clearly? I have not turned on scope by now.
- the level meters are showing false informations. optimaster says -5db and mubaco says -20db? even if those are output meters, if i set everything to zero/bypass they should be at the same value.
??? They (always, I think when bypassed) show what comes out of the compressors. As they are absolute standard devices used (relatively unreflected ) in any of my devices (in a way even in MOVEQ+) I'm curious what is the point here. I don't know how you're able to really compare those output meters (optimaster/mubaco). Have you used a (pure) meter behind mubaco? Does the mixer show other output values? I think I will test this now...
ok, this is it for the moment. hope not to have shocked you too much
No shock. This is my private fun I don't even know if there will ever come a device as professional as MOVEQ+ again. I have made some gigantic loud mastering with that tool and for me it's (even on this developement stage) the most powerful multibandcompressor on SCOPE. I hope I will find some points for which I really feel a must to change them.
Functionality (in general do it just a bit more like optimaster)
Hm. I don't like the optimaster - workflow for own settings. The wizard is very nice, it sounds nice, but if you want to tweak values it's very slow...
- an in- AND output meter for each band to make it possible to adjust band gain properly (now it's the output, right?), because how could i set the treshold right if i even don't know the input value?
??? You have the treshold meter for every band. This shows how treshold works. I don't like too many meters personally.
- and/or an automake-up function on each band
Autogain is always a compromise. Autogain only makes sense if I know your taste how different bands are 'normal' for your ear. It's just bad, to have high bands at same (visual) level as bass.
- a bypass and a solo button for each band instead the on/off button which i don't understand how it works or if it could be a bug, see below...
The device sounds (for my taste) much better than finaliza and other devices which use bandsplitting. Listen to single bands of optimaster and you will hear that is also lets through much more then just a mathmatical specified frequency-spectrum.It's not a bug. I tried different filters and this combination was (for my ears) the best sounding & yes, the bands let through more then just 20-200 or 200-1000 ... In fact this avoids audible phaseproblems
- a bypass and a solo mode for the Ultra section
bypass yes. Solo not possible, cause values depend on the compressor setting. It is a compressor before compressor with (more or less
) 'Intelligent' settings. So here you have the answer, why in the ultra version gain influences more then just output-gain. I will NEVER satisfy everyones needs with such a special thing, so i won't try that. I like that ultra-modus much. - more accurate level meters for all meters. on optimaster the green section starts at -10db, mubaco at -5db.
I use standard output meters. I think that's again a metter of taste (and for me graphical power). MOVEQ+ has totally different meters which have manually set values. They also differ much from optimaster.
- band gain (below Ratio) is meant to be as a makeup gain after compression, isnt't it? Then why does this affect the compression level?
See above
- when i only activate band 1 with the button just above the treshold knob (20 Hz to say 200 Hz), why do i hear more than only this range?
See above
- this leads me to the suspicion that the frequency splitter does not work properly?
It is not a 'hardcore' frequency splitter. This avoids phase problems as they are obvious in devices which use the 'standard' splitter.
- what's the reason to put the Ultra section before the bands?
It is bandcompressor before band-compressors.
- in the "normal" version, if i set the compressor and everything to zero, i can hear some phase shifting when pushing the mute button. not in a bad way, but it shouldn't be there, right?
Could you specifie that more clearly? I have not turned on scope by now.
- the level meters are showing false informations. optimaster says -5db and mubaco says -20db? even if those are output meters, if i set everything to zero/bypass they should be at the same value.
??? They (always, I think when bypassed) show what comes out of the compressors. As they are absolute standard devices used (relatively unreflected
) in any of my devices (in a way even in MOVEQ+) I'm curious what is the point here. I don't know how you're able to really compare those output meters (optimaster/mubaco). Have you used a (pure) meter behind mubaco? Does the mixer show other output values? I think I will test this now...ok, this is it for the moment. hope not to have shocked you too much
No shock. This is my private fun
I don't even know if there will ever come a device as professional as MOVEQ+ again. I have made some gigantic loud mastering with that tool and for me it's (even on this developement stage) the most powerful multibandcompressor on SCOPE. I hope I will find some points for which I really feel a must to change them. - the level meters are showing false informations. optimaster says -5db and mubaco says -20db? even if those are output meters, if i set everything to zero/bypass they should be at the same value.
Couldn't reproduce that. Mixer shows EXACTLY what the output meter on the right shows ... so I guess scope mixer and mubaco are right or wrong
Martin
P.S. or do you mean the internal processing should lead to absolute same level as input when everything's turned to zero? Then I just have to adjust output gain ("main mix) which has to be normed, cause mixing 5 signals leads necessarily to a higher output when splitting is not mathmatically correct knife-cuts (exactly 20-200 etc.).
P.P.S. In a next version I will widen the settings of freq-shift-knob again. These settings should be available for everyone individually. Maybe they have to be lower as my actual guess (0.97). Played a bit with optimaster ... you must notice, that it uses not exact cutting filters: You can't set freqs too narrow, you see it visually, you hear much more than a clearly defined freq spec when soloing Optimasters bands.
PPPS
- in the "normal" version, if i set the compressor and everything to zero, i can hear some phase shifting when pushing the mute button. not in a bad way, but it shouldn't be there, right?
bypass or mute? It is not possible to build a 100% neutral 5 bands splitting circuit. It's much less audible when you just build 3 bands that way. SCOPE has it's limits. It has no phase-neutral filters on board.
Couldn't reproduce that. Mixer shows EXACTLY what the output meter on the right shows ... so I guess scope mixer and mubaco are right or wrong
Martin
P.S. or do you mean the internal processing should lead to absolute same level as input when everything's turned to zero? Then I just have to adjust output gain ("main mix) which has to be normed, cause mixing 5 signals leads necessarily to a higher output when splitting is not mathmatically correct knife-cuts (exactly 20-200 etc.).
P.P.S. In a next version I will widen the settings of freq-shift-knob again. These settings should be available for everyone individually. Maybe they have to be lower as my actual guess (0.97). Played a bit with optimaster ... you must notice, that it uses not exact cutting filters: You can't set freqs too narrow, you see it visually, you hear much more than a clearly defined freq spec when soloing Optimasters bands.
PPPS
- in the "normal" version, if i set the compressor and everything to zero, i can hear some phase shifting when pushing the mute button. not in a bad way, but it shouldn't be there, right?
bypass or mute? It is not possible to build a 100% neutral 5 bands splitting circuit. It's much less audible when you just build 3 bands that way. SCOPE has it's limits. It has no phase-neutral filters on board.
Hi Martin
I ment the meter levels on each band, say: First band (freq settings from 20 - 200 hz) is showing -15db while the meter in optimaster with the same settings shows -5db. got it?
but for shure i can't compare the meters if I even do not know what your band meter is showing, the signal before compression, after compression, after compression and make-up, before or after ultra section?? you see, it's not that easy if you are not the one who made the device this is why i asked for a pre- and post-compression meter...
I'll write you some explanations in German tomorrow, my first "review" was a bit short and bad explained. it takes me too much time in English, and I can't really say what i want...
ah, yes, i meant bypass of course, not mute...
good night...
roman
I ment the meter levels on each band, say: First band (freq settings from 20 - 200 hz) is showing -15db while the meter in optimaster with the same settings shows -5db. got it?
but for shure i can't compare the meters if I even do not know what your band meter is showing, the signal before compression, after compression, after compression and make-up, before or after ultra section?? you see, it's not that easy if you are not the one who made the device
this is why i asked for a pre- and post-compression meter...I'll write you some explanations in German tomorrow, my first "review" was a bit short and bad explained. it takes me too much time in English, and I can't really say what i want...
ah, yes, i meant bypass of course, not mute...
good night...
roman
Katano, afaik the band meters on these beta releases show the signal after compression & make-up. Obviously the last meter (RHS) is the main device output meter. I can't help thinking that whatever you see at the output meters of the individual bands (as it's currently setup), is what you would see at the following bands' input meters if 'in' or 'pre' metering were added to the bands. I know this is the type of detail that Martin always takes into account & for what it's worth, that is why MOVEQ+ only has output metering per band (the signal is unchanged between the output & input stages of the bands) Of course, If the 'Ultra' mode somehow affects the signals between bands, that would be a different kettle of fish !
Mubaco has a parallell structure. Yes, this is signal splitted in band-regions and afterwards mixed together again. So there is ONE input for all. That's what comes in the device. No problem to add an input gain & meter.
Then you see the meter for compression which shows how much compressor is working (not the ultra one! But you can imagine on the parameters you set if the ultra is working like the second, working less ore more. The rest is ear-work anyway. You can't set that visually.) which means that you can set it perfectly to your needs.
Another thing is the 'ultra-stage': Every band goes through two compressors (only in the ultra version, you don't have to use that version.). The first of the two is the ultra stage and its value-dependence from the second can be set by the ultra-knobs.
Use the non-ultra-version if this is confusing and not wanted.
The output shows exactly what is the last level before it goes into the mixer (which mixes up 5 bands again). That's the only important level for me except... yes, it would be helpful, to have 100 % control of the first comp... but: Then again it would be more a device like Dynamyth again, which is for most guys too complex.
Why should it work & show exactly like Optimaster? This device works not like optimaster. It has no normalizer, expander, limiter! Optimaster was an inspiration, but my aim was to create a device with OTHER functionality. I hope it's functionality and controllability makes sense - not if it works like optimaster.
Martin
Then you see the meter for compression which shows how much compressor is working (not the ultra one! But you can imagine on the parameters you set if the ultra is working like the second, working less ore more. The rest is ear-work anyway. You can't set that visually.) which means that you can set it perfectly to your needs.
Another thing is the 'ultra-stage': Every band goes through two compressors (only in the ultra version, you don't have to use that version.). The first of the two is the ultra stage and its value-dependence from the second can be set by the ultra-knobs.
Use the non-ultra-version if this is confusing and not wanted.
The output shows exactly what is the last level before it goes into the mixer (which mixes up 5 bands again). That's the only important level for me except... yes, it would be helpful, to have 100 % control of the first comp... but: Then again it would be more a device like Dynamyth again, which is for most guys too complex.
Why should it work & show exactly like Optimaster? This device works not like optimaster. It has no normalizer, expander, limiter! Optimaster was an inspiration, but my aim was to create a device with OTHER functionality. I hope it's functionality and controllability makes sense
- not if it works like optimaster.Martin
no problems man, i just like to see whats going on to support my ears, thats all folks... sorry, not much time, i'm in a hurry...
i've never said that i want a second optimaster with normalizer and so on. but i expected that your device works a bit like opti, even if there's an ultra section or whatever. this was a fault from my side but is not that tragic for me.
so, keep going the good work!
cheerz
roman
ps.: nevertheless i'd really like to see the meter for each band AFTER the signal is splitted...
i've never said that i want a second optimaster with normalizer and so on. but i expected that your device works a bit like opti, even if there's an ultra section or whatever. this was a fault from my side but is not that tragic for me.
so, keep going the good work!
cheerz
roman
ps.: nevertheless i'd really like to see the meter for each band AFTER the signal is splitted...
So we really need 2 meters for every band + one for In and one for Out? One directly after splitting & one after process & one at the input & one behind mixing?
Yes, it works a bit like Opti it is a multibandcompressor It just does not have the same levels after every stage...
Yes, it is a killer - design I just wonder if we are through with discussing the functionality which seems not to be too interesting to most planetz users
Martin
Yes, it works a bit like Opti
it is a multibandcompressor It just does not have the same levels after every stage...Yes, it is a killer - design
I just wonder if we are through with discussing the functionality which seems not to be too interesting to most planetz users Martin
sorry martin for not having enough time to test all of your stuff the same speed you provide itMCCYRANO wrote: Yes, it is a killer - design
not to mention I can't test everything so thoroughly that you could benefit from things I like or dislike.
christmas is coming close, and all our customers seem to wish getting things done right now...
-greetings, markus-
--
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
Yes, this seems to be the case. Hey, I'm really not tooo much interested in getting hundreds of wishes & comments. MuBaCo will need some time which I don't have right now anyway.
I'm b.t.w. very happy to see, how many people find interest in MOVEQ+ which shows me the download statistic. That is allready kind of christmaspresent for me
Martin
I'm b.t.w. very happy to see, how many people find interest in MOVEQ+ which shows me the download statistic. That is allready kind of christmaspresent for me
Martin
MCCYRANO wrote:I miss some user-feedback here... I'm personally happy with both (all) versions, but as noone comments I don't know what should be developed further.
Martin,MCCYRANO wrote:Hey, I'm really not tooo much interested in getting hundreds of wishes & comments.
First you asked for feedback and it looks like the community could bring in their inputs/requests for further versions, then a few posts later, you're no more interested? *confused-I-am*
but i'm shure there won't be hundreds of wishes and comments, no need to be afraid
ok, once more i'd like to strain your nerves
most of the points are clear for me now except a few, where I think you get me wrong:- I meant automake-up per band, not autogain. for me automake-up is meant to automatically adjust the level to the same level like before compression. this is how i use a compressor in his classic function. then, i could always push the gain if i want to (or push the fader upwards at the mixing stage).
- I finally got - thank god - that the left meter shows the band output level, after all what you can do within the band section. The blue meter is the compression meter, right? I remember that the compression level increased when i pushed the gain in a band section (the knob below the Ratio). could you cross check this, i'm at home, unfortunately no scope here...
- last but not least beside the already discussed input meter wish, there's only the bypass switch for the ultra section left to build
cheerz
Roman
btw. i would pay for these modifications if i were allowed to. ok, i could send you another package with swiss chocolat
btw, martin...katano wrote: btw. i would pay for these modifications if i were allowed to. ok, i could send you another package with swiss chocolat
btw, is stollen ( yeah, it's named that way in english, too
) allowed as "thank-you", or does it violate the nda? and if it's ok, do you like it?-greetings, markus-
--
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
- Stollen is very tasty. For some christmas Stollen I'd do everything.
- only important thing is: This is in no way commercial, what I do for SCOPE. It's for my own fun & your fun & stollen.
- automakeup is problematic when it comes to attack-times. I don't have an idea to get them in the calculation & they must be part of it I think.
Martin
[/quote]
- only important thing is: This is in no way commercial, what I do for SCOPE. It's for my own fun & your fun & stollen.
- automakeup is problematic when it comes to attack-times. I don't have an idea to get them in the calculation & they must be part of it I think.
I'm not interested in realizing complex ideas (100s of points) which don't seem interesting for me. I'm looking for feedback like yours: special wishes on the basis what's allready there. I think MuBaCo is a great device and I thought more people would be interested & would comment on sound & co. All your points were interesting for me!First you asked for feedback and it looks like the community could bring in their inputs/requests for further versions, then a few posts later, you're no more interested?
I explained that in my last posts. It's very important for me if you like the ultra modus or if it's not too useful for you... You can turn it off with the ultra paramteters... äh... but right now I don't have an idea how to set those parameters...I remember that the compression level increased when i pushed the gain in a band section (the knob below the Ratio). could you cross check this, i'm at home, unfortunately no scope here...
That sounds very realisticthere's only the bypass switch for the ultra section left to build
Martin
[/quote]
you are surely rightShroomz wrote:I think presents of Swiss chocolate are ok Kylie
but wouldn't it be a bigger pleasure for him to get some unique gift related to where the sender is located? katano is from switzerland, and they are famous for their chocolate (as well as for their cheese and army knives
). the city I come from is the mother of stollen (somehow), so I thought it would be something special, to show some appreciation of what he does.this planet(z) is not small enough to go just to the next bar together and have a beer on him.
-greetings, markus-
--
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
I agree, absolutely.MCCYRANO wrote:- Stollen is very tasty. For some christmas Stollen I'd do everything.
- only important thing is: This is in no way commercial, what I do for SCOPE. It's for my own fun & your fun & stollen.
you ask me: "hey kylie, do you like my *put-a-name-of-one-or-more.of-your-devices-here*?" and I say "yeah, I like what *device* does, and the way you tell me what I can do with such a tool. btw, you know, the town I live in is famous for stollen. would you like some?"
you teach me things, for our both fun. I remind you of the world outside scope (sweet christmas food and stuff). there is in no way a commercial relationship between the both of us...
-greetings, markus-
--
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.
I'm sorry, but my karma just ran over your dogma.