MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

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Marco
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Marco » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:05 am

:o q hallo Frank, im sorry that I say the Word nonsense after I saw your product on your Website. This is amazing technic for big Theater mega Tonstudio and Broadcast etc.

I really wonder, no one of US is such an engeneer who needs this highend stuff. But I know that Holger could collaborate because he has same products.
Scope 7 user since 2017 and Scope user since 1998. :o

inDSP Frank
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by inDSP Frank » Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:18 am

Marco: Yes Holger has interesting stuff which could well play along. But anyway MPA is likely the most scalable thing ever seen in our industry. POLARIS is huge, high-end and a has high-end price tag. But things do not have to be that large. Wait till you see :)

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Holger Drenkelfort » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:20 am

inDSP Frank wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:48 am

I'll give him more time to evaluate the proposition.

- Frank
Frank, thanks, but... what a dubious approach. What should I decide, not knowing what this thing is and without any proposal? Your gig here seems not to be intended as a start of a trusted collaboration with SC. But maybe you let the SCOPE people know more about what you are doing.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by RA » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:31 am

@frank and holger. I dont think this is the ideal place to settle differences. At least go out and eat something together, hear eachother out with a blanco mind, decide, and move on wheither together or seperate. I dont think this discussion could help neither sides. This is between you guys and not meant for us imho. I hope things will go for the best for both sides.
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:24 pm

inDSP Frank wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:39 am

... MPA Platform and soon you'll know what these MPA letters stand for (any guesses? ;)
More Pain Audio (?)
inDSP Frank wrote:
Sun Mar 04, 2018 8:39 am
Just like the internet (the cloud) has no center. ... Let me spell this out: s-c-a-l-a-b-l-e. ... The MPA Platform is the first truly network / cloud / LAN "distributed" professional audio system on the planet.
Can you please rephrase this s-c-a-l-b-a-b-b-l-e thingy for me,- I don´t understand.
Otherwise,- when I read "cloud",- I´m out !

Finally ...
Up to now I don´t see your "product", if it really exists and isn´t vaporware, is related to SCOPE v7 and XITE hardware.
It should be to justify an announcement on this forum, especially since the old hardware is officially discontinued and even SCOPE v7 is able to run on old Creamware/ S|C PCI card hardware and computers running old(er) OS like WinXP.
When you want to jump on the train NOW, think S|C SCOPE v7 and XITE-1D / XITE-1.

IMO, your post belongs to the "off-topic" thread for now .

Enuff said I think.
The rest of your post is worth the rating tl:dr ...
I´ll spell/ explain that for you on request like you kindly started to explain some term above,- just because you think this forum members are too dumb to understand this term when used even in a description for a,- at least for me,- for the time being non-existing vaporware product.

I hope you´re not pi##ed now,- but when someone announces a new "product" and needs so many lines,- I doubt it will be a product I need because I always had the impression the best products are the self explaining ones,- but it can be I´m wrong because I didn´t understand your s-c-a-l- whatever-poly-something-or-other wisenheimery at all,-

sorry for that !

:wink:

Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Bud Weiser » Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:39 pm

Holger Drenkelfort wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 8:11 am

What I'm doing here is working on the SCOPE v7.1 update.

S|C Holger
Mr. Drenkelfort,- when I recognized the release of SCOPE v7,- that was a big surprise for me.
I didn´t expect it will happen at all.
YOU did it,- and AFAIK, you did the most part (if not all) of that herculaen task alone.
I own 15DSP PCI and XITE-1 and I cannot thank you enough for not giving up SCOPE and users !
I´m happy recognizing bug fixing and developement moves on.

IMO, SCOPE is a complex system already, offering so many solutions for audio/ MIDI work ... in general ...
Some options don´t work as expected or are buggy, sometimes depending on OS/ hardware/ system,- but I always had the hope it will be fixed some day.
So please,- don´t dissipate energies w/ new features and collaborations unless these were urgently essential for SCOPE itself,- p.ex. expanding the I/O system or cascading XITE units,- maybe by using that myserious XTDM bus or replacing ADAT and/or Z-Link I/O modules w/ other hardware modules,- and please treat expansions as optional devices.

I´m relatively old,- and I think many of the SCOPE users coming from former Creamware are too,- which doesn´t mean we haven´t youngsters here ...
But I think the old users deserve profit from bug fixes and optimizations more than NEW features and internet/cloud and what ever BS connectivity.

IMO, it needs a definition what SCOPE is,- and for me, SCOPE is a software device controlling a piece of hardware and that software device needs/deserves it´s own computer.
And that computer might be some humble one as long there´s not the demand running ALL (VST/AU) on just only one machine.

I also wonder if it would be possible expanding XITE-1 connectivity to something like Thunderbold w/o the need using esotheric adapter cards and such "workarounds".
That XTDM bus ... what was the idea behind that hardfware realisation when designing XITE-1 ?
Isn´t it useable for some future-proof data bus connectivity and for whatever "matching" interfaces,- when deciding for a today´s mid-priced laptop ?

I´d really like to use Win10 and SCOPE running on an affordable laptop w/o the need of a PCIexpress card 54 slot.
And, in my age, I try to avoid pulling and lifting rackmount computers out of racks when service is needed.

I´d also like using SCOPE and XITE w/ a portable machine not consumating too much energy,- so laptops would be great and because their batteries make a UPS obsolete when on the road, at least for the computer itself.

:)

Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by dawman » Tue Mar 06, 2018 10:11 pm

Jeez my Grandpappy use to call me Weisenheimer, Dumbkopf and other German slang.
That was so long ago when we wanted “real” cheeseburgers we’d watch him grind it up then throw it on the kitchen grill.
And people wonder why I scowl at the thought of fast food cheeseburgers. They suck.

I thought this announcement was a new kind of partnership.
My money stays with Holger until I hear “He’s interested” in said collaboration....

Ankyu

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valis
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by valis » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:54 am

Ok, I deleted my previous post where I said I was eager to see what the future holds, because I already see a path. I have a few concerns to express as the 'steward' of this community at present:

1. Frank, I see you expressing a desire to focus on community. However I just want to be clear for our user-base (this means YOU reading this scope users), this is not a public debate forum to resolve the issues of the past. It seems to me that to allow what I see already developing in that regard to continue will allow a flame war in our Announcements section, which certainly does not serve the needs of the community. So, no flames or fanning please.

2. I had some interest in the situation in the past as a part of Adern at the time. While I am not one to be unforgiving and hold onto the past, I would say that I can certainly understand Holger's posts so far. So again, communicate and work it out if that's needed. Beyond that, it's business as usual. Everyone enjoys new products!

If I have learned anything the last few years, it is when I am in a position of being a steward (which is a position of some leadership) it comes down to not being able to sit idly by and allow conflict to continue to no good end. However my words are not meant to be disciplinary, but cautionary with a path to de-escalation as the highest goal for the entire community. It is a certainty that networked technologies are now coming very fast into the Video & Audio worlds to replace our former means of connectivity. So Frank entering that market makes a lot of sense, it's where the future is heading.

But please I encourage the community to think about this with an eye to problem solving for your studio(s), not jumping behind one faction or the other. For the truth is, by being here we've already chosen music and if MPA is to play a role it seems to me that the above tenants must be adhered to. Thank you...

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by garyb » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:22 am

no more need be said.

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Janni
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Janni » Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am

I think this MPA thing is something like a low-level network driver that can be run on many platforms to distribute data (audio/video/data/midi/osc/whatever). On top: modular built hardware (a little DSP-card that can easily be conected to a raspberry pi for example and can be controlled via a browser).
Or a fancy MPA-ready controller...
Why might this be interesting to SCOPE users?

Since Frank said Scope 4 is able to use MPA, it might be something like this:
You install MPA on your Scope system and tell it that you want to use it to transmit audio and midi via Scopes ASIO and midi drivers.
Just like you would set up a sequencer.
Then you take your iPad/Android Phone/Mac, install it there too, and tell the software you want to use (e.g. a sequencer) to use MPA instead of a hardware driver (e.g. your RME-Soundcard).
Now you can send your audio/midi directly to scope (and back) without the need of additional hardware I/Os.
Just use Scopes ASIO/midi- drivers...
Scope now is still the "heart" of your studio but you can use your Hardware I/Os for connecting ADDs or whatever...
Or connect an old winxp PC with an old RME to expand your Scope I/Os.

When it's done properly, latencies should not be the problem.

Scenarios like this are not the future... they exist... Just think of remote controlled TV-productions where the hardware is at the venue but it's controlled 1000 km away.

There are many scenarios where this technology might be usefull.

I think it's a smart move to create a modular hardware and software that can handle this. But most SCOPE users probably don't need this right now since they have their hardware connected the "old fashioned" way.

Holger could integrate this MPA in Scope directly (no ASIO needed, OSC integration, whatever...).

Would this integration be an argument for non-scope-users to buy a MPA ready XITE-1?
Or a rackmounted version of Solaris? Just connect your Solaris with 1 CAT cable to your XITE/Controller/MPA based mixer/whatever and you are good to go?

Who knows?

I think this sounds interesting... nothing more, nothing less... let's see what's happening...
-/-

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by ronnie » Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:58 am

Holger Drenkelfort wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 1:13 pm
Marco wrote:
Mon Mar 05, 2018 12:20 pm
:lol: I guess MPA is nonsense?
I don't now. But have found this:

https://www.distributed.gmbh

https://www.distributed.gmbh/Impressum

http://www.salzbrenner.com/en/products/ ... ution.html
[/quote

I gather from this: Scope 4 in the cloud running on the DSP packed, multi network protocol Scala or Polaris harware which shows up as VM. They can be expanded and distributed as needs apply and you can use whatever GUI to control it including theirs (but a MADI or Dante X-touch might fit in). OSC or write your own on any OS. Plug and play any properly networked device with Dante, etc; hardware or software or just use the (Scope 4) plugins it comes with mapped to the GUI.

Am I getting this right?

So... how would it be priced? Aaas subscription (audio as applcation service)? Buy or lease their hardware?

What if I distribute Dante enabled X-Ites with CPUs running, say windows, in the cloud. Controlled by OSC on a large Android touch screen or X-touch with motorized faders, etc? Would that be better for us to look at?

Jus sayin
"I’ve come to the conclusion that synths are like potatoes, they’re no good raw—you’ve got to cook ‘em, and I cooked these sounds for months before I got them to the point where they sounded musical to me." Lyle Mays

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Bud Weiser
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Bud Weiser » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:24 am

Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am

... MPA ... low-level network driver ... many platforms ... data (audio/video/data/midi/osc) ... modular built hardware ... DSP-card ... raspberry pi ... browser ... fancy MPA-ready controller...
Why might this be interesting to SCOPE users?
Good question ... especially because the upcoming question will we "what is the majority of SCOPE users doing w/ SCOPE and what do they really need to get their work done ?"

All the above and below is mainly guesses and "featuritis" talk.
Save lifetime, use less gear instead of more !
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
Since Frank said Scope 4 is able to use MPA, it might be something like this:
You install MPA on your Scope system and tell it that you want to use it to transmit audio and midi via Scopes ASIO and midi drivers.
Just like you would set up a sequencer.
Then you take your iPad/Android Phone/Mac, install it there too, and tell the software you want to use (e.g. a sequencer) to use MPA instead of a hardware driver (e.g. your RME-Soundcard).
Why ?
I use SCOPE ASIO when I want to record/ mix something.
I also don´t need any iPad, Android phone or Mac in addition to my PC running SCOPE/XITE and some pro DAW application.
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
Now you can send your audio/midi directly to scope (and back) without the need of additional hardware I/Os.
Just use Scopes ASIO/midi- drivers...
Hmm, "you can" ... "you can" ...

How many NEED is the question !
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
Scope now is still the "heart" of your studio ...
SCOPE/XITE already WAS the heart of my studio in my former location, w/ a 2nd SCOPE machine hosting SCOPE PCI in addition,- alltogether w/ Studio One Pro, Reaper and Phead Reason, NI Komplete ... only to name some,- and all the 3rd party devices for SCOPE in addition.
All that s##t ran in sync, even together w/ ATARI running Notator SL and a true reel-to-reel MTR using a synchronizer box.
MIDI was MIDI and audio was ADAT or analog-out to the monitor speakers w/ a volume knob in between.
AD/DA connected, expanding outputs and offering additional inputs for my hardware instruments.
In fact it was neary perfect for me when there weren´t the MIDI assignment total recall preset system bugs I now hope to get fixed in SCOPE "soon".
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
... but you can use your Hardware I/Os for connecting ADDs or whatever...
Or connect an old winxp PC with an old RME to expand your Scope I/Os.
"you can ..." (?) ... no, I already could ! See above.
And up to now, my SCOPE runs on WinXP machines,- 32Bit.
But it will change, I promise ... :lol: :lol: :lol:
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
Scenarios like this are not the future... they exist... Just think of remote controlled TV-productions where the hardware is at the venue but it's controlled 1000 km away.
Yeah, touché ! That´s what I do everyday of my life since I started making my living w/ music.
You see my productions and dunno me, don´t even know I´m controlling ALL !

What I read here to me is "control-freak´s dreams" ... CFD,- the new studio standard !

I understood, even Holger D. and others like Ferrofish already run their "pro audio" departments for the large venues, theaters, broadcast and such.
I´m pretty sure, most SCOPE users run home-/project studios, maybe also do some mastering and some do live recording/mixes.
What we do is already overkill because in today´s music biz there are sitting "producers" on the patio in the sun, w/ their laptop, Ableton LIve and a Chaos Pad, make beatz and arrange some loops, then release.
Very cost effective because the main audience is so undemanding accepting mp3 and earbuds,- and when it comes to the super cool guys,- compact cassette tapes again nowadays.

As a developer/manufacturer, it might be clever finding the best common denominator when doing marketing research in the user base and deliver.
When the user base were large enough and bought enough hardware and devices, we probably had MADI and DANTE already, but I fear there are not enough out there in the need of more than 36 - 38 audio I/Os which is what XITE-1 offers when connecting enough AD/DAs.
And you can,- once the BNC wordclock bug is fixed for XITE.

So, SCOPE v7.1 and more upcoming fixes and improvements will be much more important than implementing new features because these alone will increase SCOPE/XITE usability, stability and functionality.
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
But most SCOPE users probably don't need this right now since they have their hardware connected the "old fashioned" way.
^^^^^^^^^
THIS !
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
Holger could integrate this MPA in Scope directly (no ASIO needed, OSC integration, whatever...).
Wasn´t there the plan iusing JUCE, integrating Copperlan and Audiobisquit Parseq into SCOPE 6 and and what else ?
Most underestimate all the work and manpower necessary implementing stuff and make it functional w/ hardware being developed and released for the 1st time many years ago.
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
Would this integration be an argument for non-scope-users to buy a MPA ready XITE-1?
IMO, improved SCOPE and XITE optimizations will sell more XITE boxes !
Nothing else.
Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 3:28 am
Or a rackmounted version of Solaris? Just connect your Solaris with 1 CAT cable to your XITE/Controller/MPA based mixer/whatever and you are good to go?
When you mean John Bowen´s rackmount hardware Solaris synth, well,- that has to be realized 1st and it´s interesting what it will cost.
I´d be surprised seeing it @FFM Musikmesse ...
Maybe next year,- and it could be easily connected to XITE-1 using AES, a cheapo SPDIF converter and 2 MIDI cables.

We have no idea if this MPA "product" will work flawlessly when released as also not what the investment will be.
How much do you invest for just only using 1 cable instead of 4 ?
And how many users will invest into new hardware supporting the MPA when their old hardware is still good enough to get the work done ?

I´m now over 60 years old and for me it is pretty clear I´ll avoid all new gear purchases "promising" endless update cycles to make it perfekt.
It better works now,- life is short !

:)

Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Bud Weiser » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:43 am

ronnie wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:58 am

... Scope 4 in the cloud ... DSP packed ... multi network ... protocol ... Scala ... Polaris ... VM ... GUI ... MADI or Dante ... X-touch ... OSC ... OS.
... Dante enabled X-Ites ... in the cloud ... Android ... motorized faders ... etc
The best is "etc" at the end of that line and in the sense of "too much is not enough" ...

Maybe I should change my sig again today (?)
ronnie wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:58 am
Would that be better for us to look at?
Show me your music/work, (full) order books,- and I tell ya what ya really need.

I probably should start some consulting biz and quit music completely ...

It all reminds me on this ...

reality check.jpg
reality check.jpg (78.93 KiB) Viewed 793 times
:)

Bud
CFD,- the studio standard :wink:

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by ronnie » Wed Mar 07, 2018 8:17 am

How true! ROTFLMAO. FWIW, I always carry a Decibel meter and sometimes I have to plug my ears, even at corporate events, weddings, etc. When I perform solo with my Privia via Pianoteq, etc, and Laptop with a tiny NanoKontrol, or with a small band or PA-600 keyboard I just use my Mackie Reach and a Sub. I wouldn't do Madison Square Garden with it, but it is very versatile for cafes to decent size halls for 200 guests and I can carry everything myself. Carrying two Mackie 450SMs (Italian versions, natch) with a sub and a Kurzweil became real old). This setup, by comparison is a breeze. BTW, for all you early pre X-XITE laptop live guys and gals, the sound goes out of the bulletproof DELL ATG through a PCI Express Echo I/O card (ASIO). Latency is nil at 44 or even 48 and will go to 96 which is overkill for what I use it for. I still have to figure out how to clone my dongles, I'm good but not that good. I try once in awhile because it's a pain in the ass to carry those around. Sometimes I'll top off the Privia with a Ik Pro-37 for additional parts, very light, full-size decent keys but tiny nevertheless.

In the studio it's Scope all the way, everything else connects via ADAT, Native and hardware or analog for the old stuff.

What else do I need? It still needs nothing after 15 years for me. I'm only waiting for 7.1. and I'm done. LOL.
"I’ve come to the conclusion that synths are like potatoes, they’re no good raw—you’ve got to cook ‘em, and I cooked these sounds for months before I got them to the point where they sounded musical to me." Lyle Mays

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Janni » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:01 am

@Bud: I think we pretty much agree on nearly everything ;-) This MPA is nothing a "normal" Scope-user needs.
That's what I wanted to say by asking if this integration would sell more XITEs.

I would like to see a bugfree v7 and I'm crossing my fingers this will happen.
The only thing that is missing for me right now is a reliable controller.

But why not look one step further? Could this MPA thing create a bigger userbase? That COULD bring some money to SC. Just think of a university that needs to distribute audio and video to several buldings...
Right now I'm sitting in front of a ProToolsHD-System, monitoring and measuring is made with RTW, signals come and go via NEXUS and LAWO... MADI here, Dante there, Ravenna... Communication via Riedel, and so on. So many times I thought: Scope could do a lot of that work IF...
-/-

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by valis » Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:13 am

Holger mentioned 7.1 is his focus. There's also a bug tracking system and our userbase, so the rest is just up to man hours. Since I sleep in my studio (ok, on my keyboard) at times myself, I can only imagine what Sonic|Core feels like with that effort.

Also that's a good question to ask Frank in the threads in General Discussion, is his system compatible with Dante and the higher net LAN systems like Venue and SoundGrid and so on? That might have been covered though, I'm fairly busy atm and haven't had time to read all that has been said.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by next to nothing » Wed Mar 07, 2018 11:24 am

valis wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:13 am
There's also a bug tracking system
If you are referring to the "official" bug reporting area, i think Gary mentioned earlier it is dead. If that is the case it should probably be removed from the Problem solving area.
A positive attitude may not solve all your problems, but it will annoy enough people to make it worth the effort.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by valis » Wed Mar 07, 2018 12:24 pm

Well, that simply proves how little time I have had to read all the posts here, hah! Thanks for the information, I'll defer to Gary on whether it should be removed or not. Or, feel free to point it out to me again in a month or so when I have more breathing time.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by t_tangent » Wed Mar 07, 2018 1:05 pm

Yes when I asked about this a short time ago, I was told it was best to email bug reports to support, and there is also the Scope 7 bug report thread http://forums.scopeusers.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=35221
so other users can check against their setups and confirm if it's also a bug on their system or not, which might be useful to the devs. But the leantesting bug report system hasnt been used for a while it seems, so I guess its pointless posting anything there.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Liquid EDGE » Wed Mar 07, 2018 2:57 pm

inDSP Frank wrote:
Tue Mar 06, 2018 1:35 am
To the contrary. I was saying it looks like they complement each other. No?
(Liquid - Sorry I got you wrong.)
Yes it does!
Synergy all over the place.

There is no development required from Holger.
The dock is actually done.

Only the question whether it will dock to SCOPE 4 or SCOPE 5/6/7/8/9/X.
For all MPA concerns, SCOPE 4 is perfectly fine and enough.
But maybe not for this community.

- Frank
If there is nothing SC needs to do that’s great.

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