MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by ronnie » Wed Mar 07, 2018 7:36 pm

Do I assume correctly that MPA already "docks" to Scope 4 without any business restrictions? If it wants to dock to Scope 7, would that be a new arrangement that would be a revenue stream for Sonic-Core via some agreement.
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Liquid EDGE » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:22 pm

What does this mean frank?

“SC and me are sharing the same rights to the SCOPE platform as per pre-XITE status. However, XITE and SCOPE 5/6/7 is SC's branch and not mine.”

Does it mean you can still do stuff with version 4, but SC are the only ones allowed to actually maintain and develop the platform further?

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Liquid EDGE » Wed Mar 07, 2018 10:41 pm

Janni wrote:
Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:01 am
@Bud: I think we pretty much agree on nearly everything ;-) This MPA is nothing a "normal" Scope-user needs.
That's what I wanted to say by asking if this integration would sell more XITEs.

I would like to see a bugfree v7 and I'm crossing my fingers this will happen.
The only thing that is missing for me right now is a reliable controller.

But why not look one step further? Could this MPA thing create a bigger userbase? That COULD bring some money to SC.
A whole lot of this. I agree with so much Bud has said. Especially the main way to expand user base actually being a clean bug free scope v7. And for me that’s my main wish. Back in the creamware days that was also my thoughts towards Noah “why are you doing something new, just perfect scope for gods sake”.. These are my similar thoughts now “just allow SC to perfect Scope Xite”

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by RA » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:03 am

@liquid
I think it is meant that they both share the rights to the old scope versions and more important that older development software for creating the scope software. With that SC created the v5 software. SC took the path in continuing the development, making it up to date and include xite drivers and functionality. So xite can only run on the SC branch of the scope version. V4 does not support xite and it also doesnt support the newer windows os-es.

Ofcourse everyone wants bugfree software, but in order to survive as a company one HAS to develop new stuff. Else you will be gone in a few years. Bugfixes dont pay bills. For me...please do new stuff, but not just for the sake of new stuff...there has to be a vision behind it all. ....dont keep hanging in old stuff. The newer stuff should pay the bugfixing for existing products.
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Sounddesigner » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:09 am

RA wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:03 am

Ofcourse everyone wants bugfree software, but in order to survive as a company one HAS to develop new stuff. Else you will be gone in a few years. Bugfixes dont pay bills. For me...please do new stuff, but not just for the sake of new stuff...there has to be a vision behind it all. ....dont keep hanging in old stuff. The newer stuff should pay the bugfixing for existing products.
+1.. Well spoken Ray! New customers are attracted to new developments not bugfixes. Many of SCOPE's functionality and devices are more than 10 years old and that's not attractive to the market. Most successful companies know this such as Universal Audio who's business model is to dazzle the naïve with constant new (but redundant and insignificant) devices. I'm not saying there should not be a significant focus on bugfixes just saying a company has to strike the right balance of both bugfixes and new devices/functionality.

Regarding SCOPE technology- Multiple companies own SCOPE technology. Frank Hund, Holger, and Juergen. Frank Hund gave SCOPE technology to Use-Audio who created Plugiator wich was hardware that ran many SCOPE plugins such as profit 5, prodysee, minimax, etc and Juergen released a table top synth based on b2003 organ. There was also another company that released a device based on SCOPE tech but I can't remember their name and I suspect they also got it from Frank. When Creamware went insolvent SCOPE technology rights were purchased thus dividing the rights with multiple people.

EDITED
Last edited by Sounddesigner on Thu Mar 08, 2018 4:47 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Liquid EDGE » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:17 am

Ok makes more sense. So frank could do whatever he wants with further versions of scope.

I believe bug fixing does create more revenue. More people buy the product! If something is known to be buggy outsiders will be put off! “No point buying anything new, as proven with history, they just release buggy stuff and don’t fix it” type of thing. Bug fixing is very important.

For example, I’m not really inclined to invest in John Bowen’s hardware synth if he can’t be bothered to update and fix his software version for Xite (basically the sequencer part). It doesn’t send a good message about customer care.

On the flip. If Ocean Swift didn’t sort out the seq issues on their Ocean Storm synth on Xite I would not of ended up buying ALL their stuff. (Which is all new stuff for scope)

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Sounddesigner » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:31 am

@Liquid Edge. You do love SCOPE itself don't you :D ? SCOPE has long been with lots of bugs like most complex software i.e DAWs, Windows O/S, etc. I'm sure you don't regret buying SCOPE despite all the bugs its always had. Bugs will always be with sophisticated software. You are correct if software is too buggy it can turn new customers off and I believe this is what happened to Cakewalk in part, but also all the successful companies I know of continuously release new stuff. The desire for the 'new' is the ugly reality of the market. The need for the new has been stated in many successful companies Business-Model. I'm not totally disagreeing with you I do believe bugfixes are needed as well.



EDITED

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Liquid EDGE » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:50 am

Yeah i absolutely love the platform. And I love SC for doing what they do. (Just sort out the remaining seq issues 😀)
Shame about cakewalk.
And yeah Cubase has its quirks. They all do.

Any way it would be nice if SC and Xite can comfortably bridge with this new idea from frank. And I hope, that even if SC decline, frank doesn’t do anything that would upset what SC are doing.

I’m pretty much at a point I desire nothing more for my studio apart from Xite related goodies once and a while. 😁🔊🎶😀

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Liquid EDGE » Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:57 am

And about unnecessary new stuff!

Roland software 909 and 808.

It’s not new. Rebirth got it pretty much bang on 20 years ago.

So much in music tech just seems to be a regurgitation of what’s already happened.

Buy the same thing. Again and again and again and again and again. 🤯😁😀

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Sounddesigner » Thu Mar 08, 2018 3:35 am

Liquid EDGE wrote:
Thu Mar 08, 2018 2:50 am

I’m pretty much at a point I desire nothing more for my studio apart from Xite related goodies once and a while. 😁🔊🎶😀
I'm largely the same way. When I bought SCOPE I settled down and nolonger felt the need for anything new, jusr occasional wants. My purchasing rate dropped DRAMATICALLY and my purchases are very infrequent now, and most of my 'want' purchases are SCOPE related. SCOPE had the ability to take away the constant 'need' for the latest-and-greatest and turned it into a infrequent want. I don't purchase stuff often like I use to cause once I entered the world of SCOPE it took me out of that endless chase for better tools world wich a lot of Native users are still caught in. A lot of people think SCOPE and other hardware is too expensive but then spend many years endlessly upgrading and replacing their Native plugins and computers due to deficiencies wich ends up being really expensive itself and many are still never fully satisfied with Native. My SCOPE synths and many other SCOPE devices sounded great 10 years ago and still sound great today, no need for endless upgrades now!

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by valis » Thu Mar 08, 2018 8:10 am

My Scope hardware has lasted me 17 years so far, and surprisingly it's still housed in the same machine as well!

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by inDSP Frank » Thu Mar 08, 2018 1:25 pm

Does it mean you can still do stuff with version 4, but SC are the only ones allowed to actually maintain and develop the platform further?
Liquid & Sounddesigner: Yes, both of you are right!
But why not look one step further? Could this MPA thing create a bigger userbase? That COULD bring some money to SC.
Yes, it was the idea to create a win/win synergetic situation. Both SCOPE and, consequentially, certainly also Sonic Core would benefit from such synergies. One of the synergies was to promote SCOPE as the playground and development lab for MPA. Anything developed for MPA would have been available for SCOPE too.... what a win/win!

Let's take a closer look:
* for MPA: MPA would have saved the effort to redo the SDK by using a (somewhat more) modern SCOPE SDK. That's a win!
* for SC: SCOPE would be in the very spotlight with the community we're building with MPA - bringing in (over time) hundreds of new developers for SCOPE (and MPA). A much needed boost for SCOPE, if you ask me!

How to keep SCOPE alive? Neither bug fixes nor a few new features will save SCOPE from a slow but steady decline. This not because of tech reasons - Holger can keep working on SCOPE until Windows 18 or until he retires, whatever comes earlier. It's in the marketing. Unless SCOPE is exposed to and tied into new communities, SCOPE will remain commercially challenged.

Connecting SCOPE and MPA would have been such a thing.

Past tense because Holger has declined to meet and discuss. This means the dock is with SCOPE v4 and not with any later versions or hardware. But unless these new people could use v7 and XITE and the latest SDKs - me and MPA can't build on the SCOPE as an environment which is part of the MPA fabric. SCOPE v4 is just way too old to offer it as an environment to new users.

So for now this whole idea has lost much of the synergy aspect of new interest by new developers into SCOPE. However, we can still run SCOPE version 4 for the purpose and it remains a viable technical bridge even without the immediate community benefit. Whatever people develop in SDK v4 for MPA will still be available for SCOPE too. I will keep this path open as there will be many good reasons to walk the bridge between SCOPE and MPA. For example: if existing SCOPE developers had a lot bigger market (with MPA) then they would return to developing new things and these would naturally be available for SCOPE too. DSP from MPA can also be transferred over to SCOPE.

Another major synergy still standing is to bind MPA and SCOPE in a control layer. That should not be so hard to do. If Holger does not want to do it, maybe there is some developer in your community who can invest some time into such things. Volunteers please! One of the reasons why almost noone buys a SCOPE is the complexity of the Routing Window. One of the mistakes I made. I love it, you love it, but most people just get scared and run away. In contrast, presenting SCOPE in the shape of a high-end digital mixer would turn a lot of heads! This needs an alternative new front end with touch and tactile motorized control and networking. We at MPA likely have the best such UI there is. Tie it to SCOPE and sell XITEs like hot cakes because suddenly SCOPE is not an expensive Sound Card but an amazingly powerful and even cheap digital mixer. Anyone able to follow me?

Anyway. Do you recall the promotion for SCOPE 6 - the idea of the "Open SCOPE" for bringing new developers in? As fuzzy as the campaign was, I thought the basic ideas of opening up and using networking technologies was a really good direction! Too bad it did not materialize. SCOPE can not afford losing many more such opportunities.

To those of you already concluding MPA is not for you. Be clever and wait until you see. It implements a set of entirely new ideas which, if interfaced with SCOPE, could surely take SCOPE to a new level.

Not everyone may be aware we live in the age of networking. Both products and communities have to network. Any community which does not embrace this new mindset and new reality will sink into oblivion.

Few more weeks and you'll find out what they guys from MakeProAudio are all about. Uups now you know our name ;)

- Frank

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by faxinadu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:17 pm

you do understand almost nobody uses scope4 right? you do realize scope4 is from something like 2005? and i am wondering why not only you never talked to sc but also never to any of the scope 3rd party devs?

and I STILL don't get WHAT IS MPA????????????? can you write a clear non-cryptic message explaining everything?
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by DragonSF » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:10 pm

I think it's more a matter of ownership. If Franks still owns scope 4 (or is a co-owner), he can do what he likes to do with it. If he wants to modify scope 5 or higher, he needs permission to do so.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by faxinadu » Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:41 pm

ok but that aside scope4 is irrelevant. it is like saying "hey guys this NEW cutting edge technology app doesn't work on new iphone but if you have an iphone 2 it will work"... come on this almost feels like a joke.

- scope4 does not run on OS beyond XP
- SC just now got the ball moving forward with scope7
- why are we even talking about scope4 lol
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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by Liquid EDGE » Fri Mar 09, 2018 2:30 am

I’m more confused to be honest.

Anyhows. With Xite and SDK one can make whatever they want Xite to be. Scope and Xite is basically any pro audio thing you want. It has all the ins and outs most would need as well. I’ve got the SDK, not learnt it yet though. But I got a feeling it’s a rather visual affair and does not require low level programming skills. Xite and scope is basically already the most user definable studio in a box in the world.

SC should have an advertising campaign that goes something like this. “What do you want to do with Xite? You can do it!”

It’s a mixer, it’s an fx rack, it’s a synth rack, it’s a modular synth, it’s a Audio and midi router, it’s a mastering rack, it’s a sampler, it’s a channel strip, you can connect any audio cable to it, it’s a di box, it’s a filter box, it’s a guitar amp, it’s an audio recorder, it’s a midi controller, it’s an arpegiator, it’s a step sequencer, it’s your multi client soundcard, it’s your naitive to real world connection box. It’s all of that and more as one can make anything they can think of for it with the SDK. And your window to that world is the pc. Every time I have thought of something there has always been a solution in scope, it’s effing nuts! The only thing it’s not is a daw like Cubase (which I think it should never bother with trying to be) and if people are too dim to understand it then more fool them. Pandering to the needs of dimwits leads to limitated tech imo.

Seems like MPA wants to be the most user definable studio in the physical world. As in, people can build and design there own hardware bits/modules (bits of software encased in their own touchy-feely bits of user defined hardware) and connect it all via a network, meaning less cables.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by DragonSF » Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:15 am

But still in SDK you are restricted to what the current set of DSP programs offers. On other open systems, you can add your own DSP algos freely, without being restricted by a Dongle or whatever.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by inDSP Frank » Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:43 am

Faxi: I certainly agree with every word you say about SCOPE v4.

That's why I had stated
But unless these new people could use v7 and XITE and the latest SDKs - me and MPA can't build on the SCOPE as an environment which is part of the MPA fabric. SCOPE v4 is just way too old to offer it as an environment to new users.
So the plain fact that SCOPE v4 is too old (<--- CAUSE) is the exactly the reason why SCOPE can not easily become a member of MPA fabric (<--- EFFECT) and therefore enjoy the synergies I was suggesting. In order to connect communities and synergize you... uhm well... you have to connect and synergize.

Anyway. Once you see - few more weeks - you WILL understand.

Cheers

Frank

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by petal » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:00 am

Why even discuss MPA before we know what it is?

I hear a lot of "soon" and see no show.

All I see is communication gone terribly wrong at this point.

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Re: MPA: A whole new Chapter for SCOPE and you are invited

Post by t_tangent » Fri Mar 09, 2018 6:27 am

Yes, it's kind of like inviting everyone to your wedding before you have asked the girlfriend if she'll marry you.......correction....before you even have a girlfriend :)

Anyway, I guess the best thing is to wait and see how MPA fares when it is available, and then perhaps If it is something that us Scope users feel could be of benefit, maybe then it might look more interesting to SC. But I think the whole way this has been presented so far has been a big mess. Personally I wish you all the best with MPA, and who knows, I might be interested when I see a tangible product and use, but for now it's all just a pipe dream.

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