NAMM 2013

[dawman]

Try to get him to respond from here.
http://www.adern.com/home/modules.php?n ... view&id=22

[neuromantik]

Soon,soon wont cut it anymore.

As my mother would have said, Patience is a Virtue...

It's a thin line between overstretching yourself when money is tight, and pushing money into development in order to speed up the dev-test-release process.
It's up to us all to stay committed, and to keep a positive face on it all. I see the importance of that.
And, as was said, to support their efforts with some concrete demos of the gear. Something like the clips on dawman's soundcloud account, links to media on ScopeRise articles, and youtube links showing the gear in action. In effect, we can become part of the marketing of Scope - it is us that benefits from a strong S|C.

I cannot imagine that S|C doesn't know that we are anxious for progress! It must be frustrating for them too...

Dawman, great idea, postpone the wait by learning Modular
Can you post up a link to Assaf's videos?

I'm pretty sure Assaf is still selling his videos on adern.com..

Anyhow without wanting to come off as a unsatisfied customer, I think in the future S|C should hold off on announcements if they can't AT LEAST give us a roadmap of what to expect and when. Remember when Waldorf announced the Pulse 2 last year and brought an empty box to NAMM 2012? One year later still no news, and vaporware announcements tend to hurt a company's reputation more than anything.

I'm not really complaining, as I have enough power + learning material (thanks to Roland Kuit's ebooks ) to last me at least 4-5 years, but it would nice to get some of these bugs corrected, or at least an incremental stripped down alpha of SDK6. I'm a software developer by profession, and I know how projects can sometimes get out of hand due to lack of staff and tough learning curves for new developers.

If anyone from S|C is reading, I would suggest to provide perhaps an NDA and an open source version of what exists and let people like myself or others who work in IT to be able to help them out, free of charge! By no means am I a DSP coder (I wish!!) but I do have 15+ years of SW experience, and can correct bugs (things like coredumps or segfaults), do GUI stuff, and know how to use a kernel debugger so perhaps driver issues as well. The meat of the development, ie. DSP code, filter/osc algos, should be of course closed and available only as dlls so that members of the community can help out with the painful "grunt" work.. Just throwing up some ideas..

[Fluxpod]

A Simple Roadmap would make a LOT of People happy.But i guess everybody needs to be Patient as they dont have the Manpower to write that in a PDF.
One can Dream eh.
...Soon...
Here is the new Intern of SC btw.

[siriusbliss]

****'
Anyways, SC has no budget for marketing, so we can only hope that one or more of the various publications stops by for a demo and interview.

Otherwise, the assumption is that an evolved Scope 6 and maybe ParseQ are being demo'd like they were at last years' NAMM (where they were still in very early development).

G

understood. they are way too busy and short staffed, including Gary. And lets face it, any one of us from here going would probably be having too much fun to bother with video clips and pics. Sooo why not offer/lend a badge to any one of about a thousand of us Z'ers to be the Scope NAMM media. You pay your own way and hotel?
I'm not really sure the purpose of the whole NAMM experience. Seems like a time/place to announce new gear/stuff. So only professionals/vendors/manufacturers are invited which is cool I get it but then why the band in the booth if they're not using/promoting the vendors products? Why a band at all if you are only catering to a bunch of competitors? Why not just make an announcement from your home turf? Where's a clip of some hot keyboard player jamming up a storm on the Solaris instead of someone pressing a couple of notes and twisting a couple of knobs and asking a bunch of questions.

This is the first year I haven't gone to NAMM since the 80's.
Every year I've gone I've done video interviews and posted them.
I'm on the road right now, but I'll post the link later on.

I've also emailed Sonic State and others requesting they send someone down to interview Holger or Gary, but haven't heard back -yet.

G

[dawman]

Once I figured out that the Company was a tax write off and had no employees, I decided to quit reading the automated email responses and learn the tools they already provided.

Sometime this year the Compressor we have waited for that took 2 years to design will be released, and I can A/B it to the other Compressors knowing there will be no difference from the stock plug in w/ Sidechaining, but I like having a big list of Comps, all with different pictures.

Info on the Comp would have helped me as I missed several sessions with high paying clients that refused to move forward with productions until the new Comp with glowing tubes was released.

So I agree, a roadmap would have really been useful.

[Eanna]

Completely agree that releasing new product teaser ideas too early is invariably counter-productive. So many examples over the years for that... Initial reception is invariably enthusiastic, which yields to frustrations and unanswerable questions, and a somewhat damp squib of a release.
If however that big thing is the only/primary game in town, you have to be seen to be doing something rather than nothing - so they will have felt the pressure to announce something - otherwise, we'd be asking different, more frustrated questions, and hypothesising further.

So, some big work item like Scope 6 and Parseq that'll take lots of resource and time, an early announcement should be accompanied with a release schedule, to keep user expectations realistic.

And yes, any other work should be on a roadmap.
Roadmap are progressive things! Show intent and commitment.
With a roadmap in place, our musings and disappointed expectations can be met with a 'refer to the roadmap' response from S|C.

[Eanna]

If anyone from S|C is reading, I would suggest to provide perhaps an NDA and an open source version of what exists and let people like myself or others who work in IT to be able to help them out, free of charge! By no means am I a DSP coder (I wish!!) but I do have 15+ years of SW experience, and can correct bugs (things like coredumps or segfaults), do GUI stuff, and know how to use a kernel debugger so perhaps driver issues as well. The meat of the development, ie. DSP code, filter/osc algos, should be of course closed and available only as dlls so that members of the community can help out with the painful "grunt" work.. Just throwing up some ideas..

I'd throw my hat into the alpha testing phase too, if the overhead of managing disparate alpha testers isn't prohibitive. I too am a programmer by trade, no DSP, just app stuff...

[jhulk]

if funding is problem in getting more dsp coders

then they can do what us diy electronic guys do

come up with a plan all the things that its going to be

and start a kick starter for it that way they get pledge

money up front to get the project rolling and a definite customer base

as they pledge to buy the product when released at a 20-30% reduced rate for

helping start the program

once the pledge is met then no more people can enter

and will have to pay full price for the product when its released

it would also be good for any expansions planned as for madi and anything else people want can also have kick starter projects

they can see that they can make the r and d back and make a profit from there labour

as the pledges are backed by your credit card details and by pledging your in a contract with s/c and they are in a contract with you to deliver

once the pledge is reached to cover there initial costs and over heads the money is then charged from you

and then the persons doing the development has a road map and a weekly blog on progress

then the pledges become your beta testers also giving feedback to advance the product

better than getting loans and you keep an eagerly customer base involved in the product as ultimately we want the product to thrive and grow

other wise we could see a creamware fail

[Liquid EDGE]

I'm perfectly happy with the progress. New plugs have been surfacing recently.

Namm is used to showcase what it is sc offer, be it new, recent or up and coming. If there is something new then great.

My only wish is for the bugs like the sequencer stuff to work in scope on xite-1 (sequencer module in modular, Solaris and sb404)

Yeah mattomat is awesome and works though.

As Gary said. The platform offers an incredible amount already. So they have plenty to shout about to the un initiated.
Us long time users must surely be used to the pace of developments by now.

In the past year we have had mattomat, void2 & cos2, and analyzer added to the already feature rich scope platform. And there is more to come.

I'm more than happy. As to be honest, it must be hard to actually offer something new that the scope platform doesn't already do.

[53E7]

I agree with Liquid EDGE 2012 was actually AWESOME with COS and VOID being released. I’m happy with my Scope system and I really like how plugins I bought in 2004 are still relevant and fresh sounding in 2013, meaning I like how I don’t really need to constantly replace things, but every once in a while something new arrives.

[yayajohn]

This is the first year I haven't gone to NAMM since the 80's.
Every year I've gone I've done video interviews and posted them.
I'm on the road right now, but I'll post the link later on.

I've also emailed Sonic State and others requesting they send someone down to interview Holger or Gary, but haven't heard back -yet.

G

yeah Gregg, I think you were the bulk of the pics posted last year and it was very much appreciated. I guess I don't really care if there is anything new. i just want to see more of what's going on there right now since this is the only time we hear anything. They've obviously got some stuff to demo so let us see/hear it too. And some pics of the SC gang. I also need an update on how long Gary's beard grew since last year. Hopefully some of your buds will come thru so let us know if there's a link.

Dan

[dante]

if funding is problem in getting more dsp coders
then they can do what us diy electronic guys do
come up with a plan all the things that its going to be
and start a kick starter for it that way they get pledge
money up front to get the project rolling and a definite customer base
as they pledge to buy the product when released at a 20-30% reduced rate for
helping start the program
once the pledge is met then no more people can enter
and will have to pay full price for the product when its released

Sounds OK but it is still a form of debt. If they can progress as they are now why incur any debt ?

People don't seem to get that what they are currently doing might be a workable, viable business model. If it wasn't, they'd be gone long ago.

[Sounddesigner]

if funding is problem in getting more dsp coders
then they can do what us diy electronic guys do
come up with a plan all the things that its going to be
and start a kick starter for it that way they get pledge
money up front to get the project rolling and a definite customer base
as they pledge to buy the product when released at a 20-30% reduced rate for
helping start the program
once the pledge is met then no more people can enter
and will have to pay full price for the product when its released

Sounds OK but it is still a form of debt. If they can progress as they are now why incur any debt ?

People don't seem to get that what they are currently doing might be a workable, viable business model. If it wasn't, they'd be gone long ago.

I'd have to agree. Well put Dante! Sonic Core's slow development, low risk, shoe-string-budget business model may be a good model for them. Keeping in mind Sonic Core is not a new company but have been at the helm since 2007 (almost 6 years) so they obviously know something about surviving. Also Sonic Core has experience with SCOPE's ups and downs/failures and successes as employees of Creamware so from 14 years of experience Holger might have figured out what works and what does'nt, after all they are still here and still growing the platform.

I think the early announcement of SCOPE 6/Parseq/SDK6 was to keep users on board and investing in the platform, i don't think going many years without saying anything regarding development goals is smart. As far as a time table of when SCOPE 6 and SDK 6 may be finished well Sonic Core may simply not know . I remember when SonicCore stated that 5.1 64bit would be released 'soon' but was unable to release it soon and users were angry and bashed them for it, so giving a artificial ETA has proven to not be good at times. I like early announcements on what's to come and benifited from knowing the XITE-1 hardware was being designed and comming to market long before its actual release. No matter how they operate some will be dissatisfied.

Don't get me wrong i hope things speed up and change in the future but i also believe the right person is at the helm. Holger is intelligent and has big plans for SCOPE, we just need to be patient AND support. People may be use to business models of other companies but such may just not work for Sonic Core. They have their flaws but they are still here trying to better this expensive dsp platform in tough economic times (not expensive to those of us in the know considering what you get, but money still is harder to come by).

[Sounddesigner]

double post

[garyb]

just got back in. i'll post pics in the next day or two.

Holger spent the show forming alliances with kieyboard companies, copperlan and a guitar amp manufacturer. it doesn't show yet, but if all goes well, 2013 will see this company finally firmly in the black. thew open source idea is actually part of what v6 is about. EVERYTHING is being opened up. Kickstarter is also a great idea. Holger and i discussed this on wednesday, although we had begun speaking about it several months ago in an email after i was reminded about it by the good folks here on PZ.

[Eanna]

I agree, it's far more important to keep the boat afloat that to unsteady it with any jerky reactionary or sudden unplanned movements. "Slow and Steady wins the race", as they say...

And I agree that there's nothing significant to do to add new devices, and they are still coming, which is great. We are spoiled with the best of stuff as is - I feel that I am spoiled every time I discover something new in Scope.

Some things that seem to crop up with some regularity include:
- Bugs in the Sequencer components on later Scope releases
- Long-standing issues with the STS Samplers
- Non-optimised pay-for devices for the Xite platform
- Xite supporting MADI, to make it a winning pair with the A16 MkII
No doubt, I'm missing some others. But these are at least some the items that the User Community encounters with some regularity. These should be on a roadmap, or not... Outstanding issues like this hurt the platform, and hurt user expectation when they appear to be deprioritised by S|C.

Transparency is important with existing issues. Future new development can and should be kept under wraps.

To clarify, my point above is more about S|C being in control of, and controlling, public perception of S|C.
A marketing component to their business would actively manage expectations and control the hype (increase it in some communities, reduce it in others, always keeping the kettle of interest on the boil).

My points are not intended to paint negativity. I think these are things that can reasonably be addressed, and their addressing will only help us all.

I absolutely support S|C and Scope.
It's so encouraging to hear of our shared confidence in the platform and its visionary leaders.

[yayajohn]

Did Greg Vail bring his EWI 4000s? That guy can play!

[garyb]

no, Greg just played to some backing tracks using a mic on his Tenor. yes, he CAN play.

Eanna, those are all issues, needs and wants to be addressed. old step sequencers that don't work and the sts may never work in the form they are in now. those are very old elements of Scope, like 20 years old and computer architecture has changed quite a bit. Mattomat shows that it's not Scope itself that hates step sequencers. the MADI adapter thing is strictly a matter of money to pay Juergen to design and prototype it, and then money to make them so that we can use them. all of these problems are ones that are "in the cue". yes, a marketing department would be great. right now, it's a couple of coders and a couple of office workers. as i keep saying, it's a miracle that we have Scope! the great thing is, that Holger's determination to cultivate and keep Scope is unwavering.

[dante]

MADI adaptor would be nice. As for the rest, Mattomat works and makes older step sequncers redundant, community developments with Modular could make STS obsolete. Non optimised devices for XITE - DAS have done a lot of work, eg the instance count of C350L's I can load is a great example, giving me the equivalent of an SLL mixer to work with. Zarg synths can stay on PCI and sound just as fantastic via ADAT.

As for advertising department, thats just $$$ = debt = loss of control over ones destiny. I want Scope to go Holger's way - not some board room share holder driven 'lets merge with so-and-so' agenda where Scope becomes a sub department of UniversalYammaberg, Scope 6 looks like a JP80 with pics of trumpets and XITE-2 comes with a big front knob working like a rompler.

Meanwhile WE are the advertising department ! So get to work and sell the platform....as it is now !!!

[Eanna]

Yep Gary, all good. I think we are on the same page.

Interesting way to look at it, the chance that STS tech may never be corrected in its current form, which is a pity since I've heard great things about its timestretching and pitching abilities. Looking at the docs, these were some pretty deep devices!

And the Step Sequencer issue, without knowing the history of the issue, it sounds like some component part of the platform took a hit in a relatively recent release. Not sure of the history, so it could be a hardware/PCI spec change that's changed something in the bus I guess, altho it feels software-y from where I'm sitting.

The generality of these issues suggests that the root cause lies in some shared component part of the Scope subsystems. The nature of such shared replicable bugs, I wouldn't be surprised that an attack made on those parts could fix those dodgy shared services of the platform, and a chunk of issues disappear in multiple devices, with minimal rework to the affected devices.

And yes, it appears that Gost/tgstgs, in producing Mattomat and Analyzer, has found a gateway to employ local system resources from the context of a Scope project. By producing Mattomat, he has bypassed a broken part of the platform in its current guise. If a hook could be made in the Scope API to leverage local system resources to supply the features it currently struggles with - like if Mattomat exposed a Step Sequencing API to Scope, allowing Scope to use local host features to run the step sequencers of devices like SB404 - then that avenue might well be turned around reasonably quickly/cheaply as a patch to Scope 5.1.
Scope does the hard stuff so well (quality DSP atoms and algorithms, scalability, interoperability, connectivity)...

I digress with such matters as the minutae of software..

But yes, the notion that Open Scope may provide the beginnings of a permanent rewrite of those affected areas is indeed great news. I do hope that they will find a way to reliably accommodate old devices and PCI cards on the new shiny base!

Dante, I understand that none of the issues I've listed are deal breakers, and that there are naturally-occurring workarounds for those issues I mentioned. My point is not that these are significant problems, but rather than the intention or prioritisation of their fixing be made known, to end the occasional complaints here of devices that don't appear to work as they should. It may not generate significant cashflow, but I certainly would consider an upgrade to Scope 5.1 if it included a fix to something not working right in Scope 5.0. As it is, I'm on 32-bit Win7, and have no requirement at the mo to migrate to 64-bit and Scope 5.1...

I too have no designs whereby S|C is corporate-driven. I too have confidence that the platform is best led by a driven visionary supported by a strong technical lead. The worst thing that could happen to Scope is to become homogenised, watered down, diluted to the point of blunted banality. And yes, it is indeed up to us to extol the virtues of Scope as a platform, so I/we ought to escape from PlanetZ more!

Whatever else, it's the best music production environment out there!