With the increasing number of private messages I'm receiving, and the incessantly stupid string of DAS related arguments, it is becoming obvious that my policy of "Washing my hands, and ignoring it" is not working out as I had hoped.
I had sincerely hoped that the involved parties would see the futility of this stupid exchange, and self-evolve, self-modify, self-MODERATE.
It's clear that they won't, and have no interest in finding a peaceful outcome.
I've tried multiple times now, to intervene, private messages to the DAS guys, private messages to the trolling forum members. Public posts asking people to be civil, to take into account language and culture differences, treat each other with respect. Perhaps it changed things for a few days. But it all returns to this.
Let me tell you - it sucks to be moderator in these situations.
I cannot comprehend why you guys keep doing this. It's so wearisome and stupid, and you're driving this forum into the ground. Planetz, which for many many years has been a place of good vibes, mutual support, and friendly exchanges, is now being dominated by negativity and shouting matches.
With the arrival of DAS, and the anger which they spark, and the insanity which ensues, this forum has gone to hell. Longstanding members are leaving. To be honest, I no longer enjoy being here either, because every day I have to see this same stupidity, deal with these private messages asking me to intervene.
Is there a way out of this mess, to make planetz a worthwhile place again?
So I ask you, planetz community citizens, what do you suggest that this disheartened moderator do?
Do I ban the involved parties?
Do I become completely fascist and say "No more will be tolerated, and all will be deleted?"
Do I continue to ignore this, and let these people drive everyone else away?
Do I just say fuck it and shut down the forums?
-John
This forum is dying a slow and painful death
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John Cooper
- Moderator
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sonicstrav
- Posts: 459
- Joined: Wed Jan 28, 2004 4:00 pm
GIve 'em a couple of warnings then kick 'em out....why should a few tossers screw it up for everyone else.
A lot of people here really appreciate these forums and your work and time taken over many years. This was probably bound to happen at some point, sadly, anyway, but I think you have to be as hard as nails this time - let these idiots set up their own forums sonewhere else!
A lot of people here really appreciate these forums and your work and time taken over many years. This was probably bound to happen at some point, sadly, anyway, but I think you have to be as hard as nails this time - let these idiots set up their own forums sonewhere else!
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next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
- Joined: Mon Jul 29, 2002 4:00 pm
- Location: Bergen, Norway
im sick of this as well, as ive stated many times earlier. as all other ways have been tried, its almost getting so sick i'd been considering banning involved parties for a week, with a strong warning to deal with these issues in private forums.
i dont know. but its tiering everyone out, except a handful.
(edit:netiquette)
i dont know. but its tiering everyone out, except a handful.
(edit:netiquette)
Hi John! I'm sorry it comes to this...
I love this forum, I love the people who are here, I love Eric and Olive too, even though I told them my point of view sometimes bluntly. And I love you too, brother for your patience and the good vibes upon which you've established these forums. Now seems the time to draw a line or drown with the destructive elements which are corrupting this friendly place. This might not be fun but it is necessary, and the foundation upon which Pz is built still stands, so let's not leave it to the vultures to desecrate. Please... ?
No matter how I look at it, and as you put it quite well, D*S (mainly Eric's) diffamatory and insulting behaviour is the sparkle that starts the downward spiral. He's out of control, and frankly, it's a mystery to me that he is still allowed to come in here and regurgitate the same negativity over and over and over... and over and again.
My official position is that he should be banned. He's stoped posting for a few days and things returned to normal, friendly, positive, the good ol planetZ!
I have nothing against him personally, he's acting on his unresolved emotional issues, and God knows we all have unresolved stuff! But I mean, should we let him ignite the fire that will destroy your and our handiwork? I don't think it would be wise...
I raise my voice for the cleansing of PZ from the elements that have no business here, that is, abuse, insult, hatred, diffamation, impatience and the like. Let's put this where it belong: out of the Temple!
All the best,
Etienne
I love this forum, I love the people who are here, I love Eric and Olive too, even though I told them my point of view sometimes bluntly. And I love you too, brother for your patience and the good vibes upon which you've established these forums. Now seems the time to draw a line or drown with the destructive elements which are corrupting this friendly place. This might not be fun but it is necessary, and the foundation upon which Pz is built still stands, so let's not leave it to the vultures to desecrate. Please... ?
No matter how I look at it, and as you put it quite well, D*S (mainly Eric's) diffamatory and insulting behaviour is the sparkle that starts the downward spiral. He's out of control, and frankly, it's a mystery to me that he is still allowed to come in here and regurgitate the same negativity over and over and over... and over and again.
My official position is that he should be banned. He's stoped posting for a few days and things returned to normal, friendly, positive, the good ol planetZ!
I have nothing against him personally, he's acting on his unresolved emotional issues, and God knows we all have unresolved stuff! But I mean, should we let him ignite the fire that will destroy your and our handiwork? I don't think it would be wise...
I raise my voice for the cleansing of PZ from the elements that have no business here, that is, abuse, insult, hatred, diffamation, impatience and the like. Let's put this where it belong: out of the Temple!
All the best,
Etienne
Brotha' Man John Cooper,
I have tried to help out as well by changing the subject, and begging people to engage in a positive way. This forum is the reason I bought Scope, and the members are the reason I learned, and still learn Scope. It would be bad business to ban a developer IMO, but if Olive could be the spokeman for them, that would be a good start. Eric is talented, but prefers un tranquil enviroments I'm sorry to say.
Whatever you decide, is fine w/ me. This is your baby, and I support you and the members 100%. It is sad to see such wasted time, in such an invaluable place of learning.
Thanks 4 Intervening With Such Class,..........And as the girls in Tahoe say.....
I have tried to help out as well by changing the subject, and begging people to engage in a positive way. This forum is the reason I bought Scope, and the members are the reason I learned, and still learn Scope. It would be bad business to ban a developer IMO, but if Olive could be the spokeman for them, that would be a good start. Eric is talented, but prefers un tranquil enviroments I'm sorry to say.
Whatever you decide, is fine w/ me. This is your baby, and I support you and the members 100%. It is sad to see such wasted time, in such an invaluable place of learning.
Thanks 4 Intervening With Such Class,..........And as the girls in Tahoe say.....
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hubird
Despite Olive's and in particular Eric's name calling, accusing and agressive behaviour in general we, the usual members stayed cool and polite since months.
You bet I have holded back myself after being called repeatedly a worm and a fucker for the x-th time in public.
The accusations against the SDK group I really did not wanne let go, as I feel highly solidar with them.
Would it've been good if the hundreds of new members see and read the D*S agressive nonsense spread all over the place without anyone protesting against it?
As a newbe you'd get a strange impression of this private site, isn't it?
Anyway, I also think -and I pleyed for that before- it would be good if Eric's account would be closed.
It was Eric himself who admitted he 'is bad in forum communication', their plan was to let Olive do the communication.
Not too hard that would be, as he, Eric, always has the opportunity to vent his mind through Olive's entry.
It's just Olive then who carries the responsibility, and that fact is much easier to handle than dealing with two persons.
Often there was some progress, then suddenly Eric came in as a mad c•w and spoiled everything that was carefully build up.
That's my opinion (which noone will amaze).
Soory for all the inconvenience I may have caused John, the opposite (nobody doing anything) would have been also bad.
At least you know the problem isn't my or anyone elses attitude of us, the poison really comes from one side, I stand for that
cheers, hubert.
You bet I have holded back myself after being called repeatedly a worm and a fucker for the x-th time in public.
The accusations against the SDK group I really did not wanne let go, as I feel highly solidar with them.
Would it've been good if the hundreds of new members see and read the D*S agressive nonsense spread all over the place without anyone protesting against it?
As a newbe you'd get a strange impression of this private site, isn't it?
Anyway, I also think -and I pleyed for that before- it would be good if Eric's account would be closed.
It was Eric himself who admitted he 'is bad in forum communication', their plan was to let Olive do the communication.
Not too hard that would be, as he, Eric, always has the opportunity to vent his mind through Olive's entry.
It's just Olive then who carries the responsibility, and that fact is much easier to handle than dealing with two persons.
Often there was some progress, then suddenly Eric came in as a mad c•w and spoiled everything that was carefully build up.
That's my opinion (which noone will amaze).
Soory for all the inconvenience I may have caused John, the opposite (nobody doing anything) would have been also bad.
At least you know the problem isn't my or anyone elses attitude of us, the poison really comes from one side, I stand for that
cheers, hubert.
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Mr Arkadin
- Posts: 3280
- Joined: Thu May 24, 2001 4:00 pm
Well the maths isn't too difficult is it? No problems on the Z before DAS arrived: the most antogonistic (and libelous) posts to be seen on the Z after DAS arrive. Is the problem with all the old members? Have we secretly been burning a slow fuse waiting for someone to trigger us? No. If i was a newbie to a forum and behaved as they have i would have been banned by now (remember DXL?).
i will keep my posts to a minimum and stay clear of their announcements - but i won't stand for actually very serious unsubstantiated accusations going unchallenged - or we expected to give DAS special 'kids glove' dispensation when replying to their threads? i hope not.
Are astro, hubird, shroomz, myself et al trollers? Have we ever trolled anyone else ever before? No. Therefore i think it's obvious where the problem lies.
i will keep my posts to a minimum and stay clear of their announcements - but i won't stand for actually very serious unsubstantiated accusations going unchallenged - or we expected to give DAS special 'kids glove' dispensation when replying to their threads? i hope not.
Are astro, hubird, shroomz, myself et al trollers? Have we ever trolled anyone else ever before? No. Therefore i think it's obvious where the problem lies.
Last edited by Mr Arkadin on Fri Mar 23, 2007 12:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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next to nothing
- Posts: 2521
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- Location: Bergen, Norway
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kensuguro
- Posts: 4434
- Joined: Sun Jul 08, 2001 4:00 pm
- Location: BPM 60 to somewhere around 150
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I'm in favor of tightly moderating posts from DAS.. Again, Z has been a peaceful, safe, and constructive place. If the appearance of just one person has brought it down to this point, the cause cannot be any simpler.
However, since they are a business entity, and also a valuable 3rd party developer, I don't think banning them completely is a fair treatment. I think the should be able to post announcements of new plugins, and perhaps answer technical issues with plugins, but refrain from anything else. I agree that the right to even post such simple things is "earned", but although their current political standing would definitely not grant them such rights luxury, I do believe that at the very least, they should be allowed to carry on business activities. So, my point is that we separate DAS, the business entity, and Eric and Olive, the 2 persons. DAS can post business related material, Eric and Olive cannot post personal posts.
And, well, this is all very basic I think, for proper business conduct.. common sense stuff.
But then, at the same time I think we all need to draw the line, and forget about this whole thing for a short while. When we think DAS, we shouldn't think Eric and Olive, we should think DAS as a dev shop for 3rd party plugins. (which are quite nice imho) That way we can hopefully slowly distance ourselves from feeling attacked by discrete "persons", and get used to dealing with them as a generic business. Like how you'd call up tech support and not really think about whether the guy on the phone is a nice guy or not.
So, in the end, I'm for selective intervention.. maybe laying out the rules for DAS, and deleting messages that are not covered in the guideline.
I for one, would love to have Z back the way it used to be. I mean c'mon. I joined the forum 6 years ago.. that's when I was 22, when I got my pulsar card with my first job out of college.. then I got married... moved to Miami.. moved to NY... Through all this change, Z has been a sort of oasis where I was sure to read well thought posts, get to know interesting people, and share awesome music. It really hurts me to see it the way it is now. It's time to bring Z back on its feet.
However, since they are a business entity, and also a valuable 3rd party developer, I don't think banning them completely is a fair treatment. I think the should be able to post announcements of new plugins, and perhaps answer technical issues with plugins, but refrain from anything else. I agree that the right to even post such simple things is "earned", but although their current political standing would definitely not grant them such rights luxury, I do believe that at the very least, they should be allowed to carry on business activities. So, my point is that we separate DAS, the business entity, and Eric and Olive, the 2 persons. DAS can post business related material, Eric and Olive cannot post personal posts.
And, well, this is all very basic I think, for proper business conduct.. common sense stuff.
But then, at the same time I think we all need to draw the line, and forget about this whole thing for a short while. When we think DAS, we shouldn't think Eric and Olive, we should think DAS as a dev shop for 3rd party plugins. (which are quite nice imho) That way we can hopefully slowly distance ourselves from feeling attacked by discrete "persons", and get used to dealing with them as a generic business. Like how you'd call up tech support and not really think about whether the guy on the phone is a nice guy or not.
So, in the end, I'm for selective intervention.. maybe laying out the rules for DAS, and deleting messages that are not covered in the guideline.
I for one, would love to have Z back the way it used to be. I mean c'mon. I joined the forum 6 years ago.. that's when I was 22, when I got my pulsar card with my first job out of college.. then I got married... moved to Miami.. moved to NY... Through all this change, Z has been a sort of oasis where I was sure to read well thought posts, get to know interesting people, and share awesome music. It really hurts me to see it the way it is now. It's time to bring Z back on its feet.
Hi John
I truly understand your feelings. I have myself been a moderator on one of the biggest pc-sites in Denmark some years ago. It is really hell, when all you want is a peaceful and nurturing forum, and then some people just don't understand how to keep it that way. The main difference is, that I was an "external moderator", where as you are the only administrator and moderator of YOUR forum. I believe this makes things much harder.
I honestly think it is time to make the final warning to some people. This includes:
No more offensive accusations from DAS. I saw a thread about jitter, where Eric once again went offensive defensive. I could see absolutely no reason for this, and it is really annoying to enter Z and see shit like this.
No more thread crapping from i.e. Hubird, where he vents his thoughts about DAS totally off-topic. I mean: say the word "French", and you can be sure he comes up with some remark obviously related to DAS - and that is annoying too.
I think everybody should obey to the rules of Z - no matter if they sell plug-ins through the CW/soniccore site or have made XXXX posts on Z. I think DAS would have been banned long ago, if they where not developers. I don't think they should be treated any different than everyone else.
I think it is perfectly fine to say "No more bull-shit tolerance" for anyone. I know how annoying it is to make such a statement, and I feel sorry for you John for being in this situation. But really, I do think it makes things more simple, when it is made clear that the rules can not be bend.
It is not true peace, but it is armistice - and as such functionally good enough. If people can not keep their guns in their lockers, then give them a 14 days ban - no discussions taken/given. If people break the rules again, then "offer" them a permanent ban. If they do not understand that, then they are not worth your time as a moderator and your good mood as a human being.
No matter what you decide, John. I am fully behind you and I back your decisions 100%. I know that you do not deal with these things on a superficial level. I can not say with words how much good Z has given me.
Immanuel
I truly understand your feelings. I have myself been a moderator on one of the biggest pc-sites in Denmark some years ago. It is really hell, when all you want is a peaceful and nurturing forum, and then some people just don't understand how to keep it that way. The main difference is, that I was an "external moderator", where as you are the only administrator and moderator of YOUR forum. I believe this makes things much harder.
I honestly think it is time to make the final warning to some people. This includes:
No more offensive accusations from DAS. I saw a thread about jitter, where Eric once again went offensive defensive. I could see absolutely no reason for this, and it is really annoying to enter Z and see shit like this.
No more thread crapping from i.e. Hubird, where he vents his thoughts about DAS totally off-topic. I mean: say the word "French", and you can be sure he comes up with some remark obviously related to DAS - and that is annoying too.
I think everybody should obey to the rules of Z - no matter if they sell plug-ins through the CW/soniccore site or have made XXXX posts on Z. I think DAS would have been banned long ago, if they where not developers. I don't think they should be treated any different than everyone else.
I think it is perfectly fine to say "No more bull-shit tolerance" for anyone. I know how annoying it is to make such a statement, and I feel sorry for you John for being in this situation. But really, I do think it makes things more simple, when it is made clear that the rules can not be bend.
It is not true peace, but it is armistice - and as such functionally good enough. If people can not keep their guns in their lockers, then give them a 14 days ban - no discussions taken/given. If people break the rules again, then "offer" them a permanent ban. If they do not understand that, then they are not worth your time as a moderator and your good mood as a human being.
No matter what you decide, John. I am fully behind you and I back your decisions 100%. I know that you do not deal with these things on a superficial level. I can not say with words how much good Z has given me.
Immanuel
well, I've had the strange pleasure to follow Eric's and Mehdi's dialog before it was deleted (...and took the opportunity to learn va tu faire foutre)
I also remember the answer AndreD received for posting a simple technical fact that 'jitter is noticable to us regular folks'
my humble sentence 'just accept that others have ears too' (and a right to their own opinion) caused a waterfall of accusations...
Eric will never stop - he's even proud of never moving his position, according to his own words. He is defining the rules, and noone but him
What truely s*cks about him is that as soon as you only rise an eyebrow regarding one of their products, he's up to release a ton of poo over your head.
Even a mild irony is responded with a ridiculous amount of vulgarity.
It's that completely unbalanced 'give and take' that make him a real pain - and obviously this is not the first forum he abuses as a personal stage for venting
I don't care about his arrogance and (non)skills, but like Mr.A I'm against 'baby gloves' for DAS
either he can deal with arguments - or he should leave
cheers, Tom
I also remember the answer AndreD received for posting a simple technical fact that 'jitter is noticable to us regular folks'
my humble sentence 'just accept that others have ears too' (and a right to their own opinion) caused a waterfall of accusations...
Eric will never stop - he's even proud of never moving his position, according to his own words. He is defining the rules, and noone but him
What truely s*cks about him is that as soon as you only rise an eyebrow regarding one of their products, he's up to release a ton of poo over your head.
Even a mild irony is responded with a ridiculous amount of vulgarity.
It's that completely unbalanced 'give and take' that make him a real pain - and obviously this is not the first forum he abuses as a personal stage for venting
I don't care about his arrogance and (non)skills, but like Mr.A I'm against 'baby gloves' for DAS
either he can deal with arguments - or he should leave
cheers, Tom
Dear John and PlanetZ members,
I would warn involved members in future once or twice and then banish them if they continue writing the so called bullshit. No matter if they have 10000 posts or only 1. That's my opinion...
I'm usually not a big fan of 'over' moderated forums, but at this point, there's no other way, i think.
What i'd like to see further is that everyone here edit his profile and include the correct location. So everyone can see if there could be some language problems and to give everyone the feel of a bit more real life.
Peace to all!
Roman Vogel, Urdorf near Zurich, Switzerland
I would warn involved members in future once or twice and then banish them if they continue writing the so called bullshit. No matter if they have 10000 posts or only 1. That's my opinion...
I'm usually not a big fan of 'over' moderated forums, but at this point, there's no other way, i think.
What i'd like to see further is that everyone here edit his profile and include the correct location. So everyone can see if there could be some language problems and to give everyone the feel of a bit more real life.
Peace to all!
Roman Vogel, Urdorf near Zurich, Switzerland
Tom,
Sorry for saying that, but this is the wrong thread. John asked us what he should do and not what happened. Could we please leave these things behind us now? I think i'm not the only one who is angry because posts were repeated and repeated again... And this belongs to both sides of the story.
So, instead tell us what you'd like to see/do to bring planetz back to what is was...
Peace again...
Roman
Sorry for saying that, but this is the wrong thread. John asked us what he should do and not what happened. Could we please leave these things behind us now? I think i'm not the only one who is angry because posts were repeated and repeated again... And this belongs to both sides of the story.
So, instead tell us what you'd like to see/do to bring planetz back to what is was...
Peace again...
Roman
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hubird
ah, sorry I justed wanted to be polite and give a reason for my opinionkatano wrote:Tom,
Sorry for saying that, but this is the wrong thread. John asked us what he should do and not what happened. ...
So, instead tell us what you'd like to see/do to bring planetz back to what is was...
then I quote an old Genesis record...
Get 'Em Out by Friday
and in case your suggestion finds a majority - which means 'equal rights for all' or in other words that I (and a few others) are put on the same level with an egomaniac to**er, John can sign me off as well.
(enough is enough)
cheers, Tom
Hubird - it is stuff like this, I am talking about -> http://www.planetz.com/forums/viewtopic ... ht=#172793
... which is just a part of my over all impression, that it sometimes looks as if it has become a sport for you to comment on DAS. This is my impression, you may disagree, I may be wrong, but none the less ... this is what it looks like on my monitor, and I do not like it. It is less annoying than DAS's accusations and other kinds of bullshit, but ... it IS annoying and it does take away from my joy of entering Z, and I do think you sometimes add fuel to the fire in a not very beautiful way. Sure Eric seems more than a bit paranoid at times, but sometimes it IS called for - if not in the specific threads then from other remarks in other threads giving an over all feel of ... bad."(and prooves that 'french bullets' can also be 'agréable'...)"
I would support banning. There are people who are new to the platform who would miss out big time if this forum was shut down. John, no one needs this crap in their life. There are some people here that are fueling the fire and DAS has a PR problem that should be dealt with. I would much prefer that individuals were banned rather than spoil it for everyone else.
Stuart.
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hubird
not really OT:
Check out immanuel and me
Our moderator would like to see us and D*S communicating in that way...
hehe, but the answer will be exactly the opposite, as we stay on speaking terms.manfriday wrote:is it my imagination or is this thread turning into an example of what John is ticked off about?
Check out immanuel and me
Our moderator would like to see us and D*S communicating in that way...