Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

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Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by alberto »

Greetings Planet Z community! This is my first post in this forum. I already read a few topics regarding what I am trying to learn/achieve but I could not find up to date information. So my apologies in advance if my questions have been asked already by other users or if I chose the wrong section for addressing what follows.

I have a Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP) conventional PCI connection, which I have been using for so many years with great performance, including ULLI supporting 3ms (if memory serves me well).
In the last few years I did not use it that much, because I was traveling and because the Apple G4 (running Mac OS9) where the audio card is mounted in has become extremely noisy and bothersome to work with (I believe most of the noise or all the noise comes from the fan).

But that Scope card, as we all know, is just brilliant and sounds like nothing else if compared to other similar equipment. A jewel to me. I want it back in my studio arsenal, so I have been considering two options:

1) To build a new PC around it, running W10 or W7 on 32 bit, but after hours and hours of reading around this forum, I still did not get to a final conclusion regarding what latest generation of MoBos is fully compatible with Scope's conventional PCI. The most recent info I found concerns Z97 MoBos based on Socket LGA 1050, 1051 and 1056 (excluding the 1055), but Z97 is already a pretty much outdated option = not new enough.
- So if someone would be so kind to let me know which latest generation of MoBo is fully compatible without performance drop, maybe Chipset Z370 on Socket 1051?
- And what about AMD?
(AM1, AM2, AM3, FM1, FM2 I am totally confused about those).
- And how to understand if a new generation MoBo with a PCI slot, runs "conventional" or "legacy" PCI?
(for what I understood "Legacy" is not fully compatible with the Scope card, because apparently it is an emulation of PCI running in a PCI-e lane, but please do not take this info as reliable, I am not an expert in informatics)

I will surely build a brand new PC around the PCI Scope card, but the absence of STS sampler support in the latest Scope 7 software update (apparently for both 64 and 32 bit), totally turns me off, as I use plenty of STS samplers, simply because they sound great and I need to open my old projects which contain them. This leads me, for now, to option 2:

2) To revive my old G4 running Mac OS9 and Scope Fusion Platform 3.1c. Maybe some of you are already laughing at this jurassic option, but believe me, that system is like a tank, it never let me down and SFP 3.1c performs at best for my needs (I can be happy for a little longer to stick to 3.1c and Mac OS 9, also because I have other machines and software running at the same time, which means I have plenty of room for creating anything I want anyway). But when Sonic Core will offer support for STS sampler, my option 1 will come into play.
----> Do any of you know if it is possible to use or adapt new generation fans in such an old machine (Power Mac G4)?
Any recommendation regarding this option 2 or other things I should keep in mind?

Greetings to all members and many thanks in advance to whoever will answer to this post. And happy new year also in advance :)
Last edited by alberto on Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by valis »

Go for option 1. The difficulty of gathering this information is something that has occurred to me as well, and there is work underway to make this simpler for returning users (and/or used buyers coming into the fold).

A good place to start is to consider what your overall expectations are for the host machine: DAW and/or host application(s) of choice, how much of your workflow is traditional multitrack recording versus sequencing versus in the box sound design and synthesis, and lastly how much performance do you need the host machine to actually have..?

Our resident tech advisor GaryB will frequently point out that for many of us the latest & greatest in computing may not be necessary (and even if it is there are ways to still integrate scope into those workflows). This is important in the case of Scope users because modern chipsets either present an unknown for stability when using Scope cards if a board does have PCI slots, or in most cases they simply don’t have PCI slots. And herein lies the crux of the direction you are looking for option 1.
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by RA »

I know enough to say that SC is working on the STS samplers, and you can easily run the STS samplers on XP, for scope 7 32 bit there is a trick you can do in the meantime:
viewtopic.php?f=20&t=35218#p332718
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by alberto »

@ RA: thanks for the "trick" link. I saved it in my dedicated folder, ready for use when the time will come (in case of Sonic Core did not yet release a further update to fix that).

@ valis: when I'm ready to do so, I guess I'd rather build a dedicated PC just for scope, which will be relatively cheap to build as (like you and Gary suggest) it does not have to be the latest (and expensive) technology in order to be reliable and effective. So I understand, in this case it is wiser to pick a Mobo which has been previously and successfully tested by some Scope user and live with it for a while.

In practice I use scope just for Synths, Samplers and Filtering without AD/DA conversion. I run it in "SLAVE" mode using only optical ADAT, S/PDIF and MIDI connections, that are routed to my two PCIe RME mounted in a Mac Pro, which is my main system. It also runs a Universal Audio PCI-e card, a bunch of different 3rd party synths and plugins and Logic Pro 9 (the last of professional Logic in my opinion, Apple did with Logic Pro X the same error they did with Final Cut Pro X = Light Edition, too much good stuff has been left out the new versions).
Regarding the rest of my audio setup, in essence, all my mixes from my main system are routed 16 channels D/A to a summing device (Neve 8816), which feeds my 2.1 speakers (Tannoy System 800A and ADAM Sub 7). Linked to the Neve is also a Yamaha MGP 16X mixer, which is an awesome choice for the price range and a discontinued but greatly sounding Universal Audio DCS Pre-amp. I use all this stuff and more for any sort of sound project (multi-track recording, editing, sound design, mixing, mastering, scoring, audio-video sync etc...).

If interested, a good example of my latest audio production is this, if I am allowed to post it here (if not just let me know and I will remove it): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YGTVKQR8PxQ
Last edited by alberto on Sun Dec 31, 2017 12:18 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by garyb »

if that's what you are doing, get an HP XW4400 or 4600 on Ebay. they are very reliable commercial workstations and the have lots of life left, for the most part. you should be able to find one with a Quadro Graphics card which will support up to 4 monitors and you should be able to find one under $150 including shipping, maybe even under $100. Z400 workstations are great too. they often have XEON processors and NVIDIA Quadro cards that have 2 Displayport connections. they are about the same price as the XW series, but only have 2 PCI slots instead of 3.

put a SSD into the computer as a C: drive and you'll get 30-60 second boots into all apps open.
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by astroman »

if you're happy with OS-9 and experience no (disturbing) lack of performance, just stay with it.
Fans and PSUs on older Macs can be replaced with few effort. What exact model of the G4 series is it ?
(I recently revitalized a blue-white G3, and have a couple of Macs with SSDs etc)

cheers, Tom
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by al_bot »

If you go the old PC route, another option is the Dell XPS 410. I'm using it with Win 7 - 32 bit on a Samsung SSD and Scope 7 with Cakewalk Sonar 6. Recently upgraded CPU to Q6600 and things continue to be smooth. It has 3 PCI slots, but you have to use metal snips to open it up a bit (cut out the hard drive bay). I squeezed in 2 of the 15 dsp cards and a Puslar 1 card. Even though everything is really old, it runs very fast and smooth and allows me to focus on writing music.
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by garyb »

the XW4400 has plenty of room for 3 15dsp cards...
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by alberto »

@ Gary: nice stuff man. Very much appreciated because that is an awesome inexpensive solution! I guess it is becoming my favourite option. I'll take one of those, probably the the Z400 and will try to use the above suggested "trick" for making the STS work in v7.

@ astroman: I will certainly keep the G4, like I did for all these years. Besides the noisy fan, it works at best and Scope rocks in it. In there I have the lowest latency ever (ULLI 3ms). So worst case scenario, if everything fails, that is a certitude until also its natural life will expire.
The G4 is a graphite one (white/transparent and blue - and it really looks as new as in the pic), the exact model I do not remember, as it is not with me at the moment. It must be either the PCI or the AGP in the pic:
mac os 9 lives005003.jpg
mac os 9 lives005003.jpg (23.62 KiB) Viewed 6032 times
@ al_bot: thanks also for your suggestion and good to know that the system stayed stable also after CPU upgrade. In the end, I agree, tools have to work for the benefit of our creativity, instead of compromising our creativity for an imperfect tool. So if it works smooth, who cares if the machine it is not the last generation.

glad I joined this forum, you guys really seem enthusiast and passionate about this stuff. thanks again for the help
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by Bud Weiser »

alberto wrote: Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:01 am I will certainly keep the G4, like I did for all these years. Besides the noisy fan, it works at best and Scope rocks in it. In there I have the lowest latency ever (ULLI 3ms). So worst case scenario, if everything fails, that is a certitude until also its natural life will expire.
The G4 is a graphite one (white/transparent and blue - and it really looks as new as in the pic), the exact model I do not remember, as it is not with me at the moment. It must be either the PCI or the AGP in the pic:
mac os 9 lives005003.jpg
There was also the G4 Gigabyte Ethernet dual (G450) ... that´s what I have in stock in excellent condition.
I kept it to load/read old Notator SL and Logic 4. files into the latest Logic 6.4.3 being compatible w/ those files.
This year I put in Alex Hilton´s Jamport http://alexhixon.com/projects/jamport/ allowing usage of non-USB MIDI interfaces like my MOTU MIDI Timepiece II or Opcode Studio 64X.
Works great !

I never used SCOPE on a Mac before, so just by interest ...
What was the latest SCOPE version working on Powermac PPCs in MacOs v9.2.2 ?
Which devices were included in that version ?
When I have SCOPE 4 / 4.5 / 5.1 and v7 for my PCI card and WinXP - 10, is it still possible to find Mac installation files and getting keys for Mac ?
Which were the minimum system requirements for SCOPE on Mac PPC and which were the recommend system requirements ?
Is there any information available worth reading according to SCOPE running on a MAC PPC in OS9.2.2 ?

thx in advance ...

:)

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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by alberto »

Hey Bud. In order to answer your questions regarding Scope+Mac:
Creamware at the time was developing software for both Windows (whatever version at the time) and Mac OS 9. According to my knowledge SFP (Scope Fusion Platform) latest version compatible with Mac OS 9 is 3.1c. Software update for Mac OS X was something Creamware was considering to develop but things went differently as we know. So there is no official software at all for any version of Mac OS X. 99% sure about that.
Now, regarding your G4 running on Mac OS 9.2.2, I would expect it to be totally compatible.
I am pretty sure it is not so difficult to find the Scope SFP 3.1c to instal in it but regarding the keys, I guess that is where the problem is.

I have all of those, but not with me. Different city, different country. So I guess, the best thing you can do is to keep searching online.
And to be honest I wouldn't know how to make all those instal CDs and DVDs available online. I guess that would require to copy clone (using carbon copy or something) and upload the files, but that is something I never did on CDs and DVDs and because I have 2 jobs, my time is unfortunately very limited for figuring out those kind of things.

Anyway, whenever the time will come I will put my hands again on those instal disks, I'll take them of course and if I find a quick (not time consuming) way, I can make the files available for whoever might need them.

---> I am just wondering if this goes against any Intellectual Property law. So I have to think twice about it, before acting in that sense.

I hope at least for now the information helps. Cheers!
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by astroman »

Keys are bound to the hardware (Scope card) regardless of the OS - upto version 4.x all keys also work in 3.1 and vice versa.
On the Mac you don't really need an installer because there's no registry/driver stuff.
Copy everything manually to it's destination would work, but that's of course more effort than the CD install process.
You even can copy someone's Scope installation - it's perfectly legal because nothing will be activated without a valid key.
And the key is your card.

The best safe bet is the Powermac G4 Quicksilver model at around 800 Mhz single (!) CPU.
Dualcores are notoriously asking for trouble in OS9 audio.
While the MDD model is a bit more powerful, it can be very picky with it's Ram. Even if it doesn't fail and passes all checks, it still may trigger errors of the most strange kind. These are really convincing fakes of application error messages, so don't be mislead. ;)

A G4 500 is a valid machine, I've installed Scope 3.1 once on a G3 (now occupied by Pro Tools), without problems.
I can copy and compress the install if you need it, but I also have a version 3 install CD for Mac iirc.
Mac is totally different from the PC version.

cheers, Tom
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by Bud Weiser »

alberto wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:10 am ... SFP (Scope Fusion Platform) latest version compatible with Mac OS 9 is 3.1c.
thx !
So I´d have no chance to get keys because my oldest version is SCOPE 4 for Windows and some optional devices came later w/ SCOPE 5.1.
alberto wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:10 am Now, regarding your G4 running on Mac OS 9.2.2, I would expect it to be totally compatible.
Well, I´m not sure about this because AFAIK MacOS 9 doesn´t support multi core/multi processor usage.
So, I´d might end up w/ only one core in use while the other idles,- and then, 450MHz per core might be not enough CPU power ...
That´s what I can imagine though ...
alberto wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 9:10 am ---> I am just wondering if this goes against any Intellectual Property law. So I have to think twice about it, before acting in that sense.
Don´t mind, we all know keys for SCOPE devices are bound to the hardware (PCI card or XITE),- so there will never be keys available in the web for SCOPE devices and a specific card ... they always go with the card when being sold and when the card dies, the keys will do too.

but thx a lot for info !

:)

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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by Bud Weiser »

astroman wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:38 pm ... regardless of the OS - upto version 4.x all keys also work in 3.1 and vice versa.
So, you say,- all the keys I own, bound to my 15DSP gen2 PCIcard and for SCOPE v4.0, incl. optional devices like Minimax, Prodyssey, B2003,- they will work in Mac OS9.x.x and in SCOPE SFP 3.1 ?
astroman wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:38 pm On the Mac you don't really need an installer because there's no registry/driver stuff.
Copy everything manually to it's destination would work, but that's of course more effort than the CD install process.
Thx, - I already know that because I use old Macs for other purposes too ...
astroman wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:38 pm You even can copy someone's Scope installation - it's perfectly legal because nothing will be activated without a valid key.
And the key is your card.
Good info !
Does it mean I´d be able copying my own Windows/ v4.0 SCOPE installation ?
astroman wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:38 pm The best safe bet is the Powermac G4 Quicksilver model at around 800 Mhz single (!) CPU.
Dualcores are notoriously asking for trouble in OS9 audio.
O.k., that´s what I feared !

On my G4 Gigabyte Ethernet Dual G450, I have TWO Mac systems running,- OS9.2.2 and OSX 10.4.11.
OS9.2.2 is for Sounddiver 3.05 as well as Emagic Logic Audio Platinum 6.4.3,- and OS X 10.4.11 runs several other apps and Emagic LAP 6.4.3 as well.
At least Space Designer in Emagic LAP 6.4.3 introduces GUI issues in MacOS9.2.2 but not in OS X 10.4.11.
OTOH, Emagic managed LAP´s audio engine using one (1) core in MacOS 9.2.2 and the MIDI engine using the 2nd core.

So I wondered,- if SCOPE SFP was able to use 1 core exclusively and the other was still for Logic and MIDI then,- but that´s only a guess though.

You might asking why I´m interested in such a setup.
In fact it´s somewhat nostalgic as also somewhat practical too.
I have a Fostex R-8 8-track multitrack recorder and some tapes I´d like to copy over to "whereever" ...
But I also have in mind setting up some "retro" studio w/ the gear I already own from the past,- and I´m not interested in using my main DAW gear for such purposes.

I think, VDat is the right tool copying the tapes and there´s that old MAC I already use for copying Notator and Logic 4.8 MIDI and so on.
I´d like to have such a setup in a separate room,- also incl. SCSI drives, SCSI director installed and such, just because I saved old sample libraries,- EMU II, III and AKAI and there´s the tape recorder, a NUENDO TImelock Pro (up to 48KHz) synchronizer and even a "old" RME Hammerfall card I have Mac and Win firmware chips for and does supporting ADATsync, 3 ADAT I/Os as well as TDIF ad there´s also my old and trusty NUENDO 8 I/O (RME ADI-8 Pro) which never failed and supports TDIF.

In fact, I don´t want all this becoming electronic scrap too early.
It still works perfect for what it does,- and I think there´s some analogy to what SCOPE itself and incl. the "old" PCI cards is,- a working system regardless where "platforms" move to.

I´d probably buy another SCOPE PCI card incl. keys to run it in a legacy MAC, maybe a Pulsar II or another 14/15 DSP ...
But then, the problem might be getting the Mac installation files I´d could use w/ my own SCOPE v4.0 keys (which I have for Windows).
astroman wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:38 pm A G4 500 is a valid machine, I've installed Scope 3.1 once on a G3 (now occupied by Pro Tools), without problems.
I also own 2 G3s,- beige desktop models ...
One of ´em has an Emagic Audiowerk 8 installed ...
I used it w/ Emagic LAP 4.8 and the serial dongle, as well as Opcode Studio Vision and Galaxy+ editors ...

IIRC, the CPU cycles are between 266 and 300MHz or such ... :lol:

Will that run SCOPE SFP 3.1 or whatever latest Mac version ?
astroman wrote: Fri Dec 29, 2017 2:38 pm I can copy and compress the install if you need it, but I also have a version 3 install CD for Mac iirc.
Mac is totally different from the PC version.
Hmmm,- sounds good to have ... the installation as also the CD image ... :wink:

Maybe I´ll get it running ... :D

Now I´m still interested what was available (devices etc.) already in SCOPE v3(.1 ...) ?

:)

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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by alberto »

While a very kind friend of mine is about to send me by internet my installation CDs in order to make them available for whoever might need them, here is the list of what is available in SFP 3.1c for Mac OS 9 (including XTC as well).
The Hans Zimmer quote which is featured now on Sonic Core website, for what I remember was already featured by Creamware at the time (around 2001) and I am pretty sure it is related to this version. However please do not get me wrong, I am very happy that Sonic Core is still developing the platform. Respect to that and sometime soon I will surely buy the V7 upgrade.

SCOPE /SP 3.1c:

Main Studiotools Package
DSP Effects: MasterVerb, MasterVerb Classic, compressor, limiter, gate, expander, parametric EQ, 4-pole filter, high-cut filter, low-cut filter, chorus, flanger, phaser, delay, dual delay, distortion.
Studio Tools: STM 1632 - 16/32-channel recording mixer, STM 16 S - 16-channel 5.1 surround mixer, VRC-S - ADAT Remote Control Unit, various audio tools (Control Room, Aux rack, etc.), various MIDI tools (monitor, merger, splitter, etc.)

Synthesizer Package I
Vectron Player, Miniscope, Miniscope MK II, U KNOW 007, Blue Synth, EZ Synth, EDS 8i

Synthesizer Package II
Lightwave, Prisma, Inferno, Arpeg 01,

Effects Package I
4-Tap Chorus, AutoPan, AutoWah, Delay LCR, Delay LCR Long, Delay Long, Dither/Shaper, Dual Delay Long, Early Reflector, Harmonic Chorus, Harmonic Flanger, Hexa Chorus, Multitap Delay, Overdrive, Pitch Shifter, Resonator, Ring Modulator, Tremolo, Decimator.

Effects Package II
DC-Filter, Deesser, Ducker, Ducking Delay, MasterChorus, MasterFlanger, MidiPole Filter, MidiTremolo, PatternDelay, RandomFlanger, SoftClip, SpaceFlanger, SSB ModDelay, SSB Modulator, SSB Phaser, StepFlanger, Stereo Expander, Tube Drive, TQ Drive, Vocoder III

Mixer Package I
STM 2448, Dynamic Mixer, Micromixer

Mixer Package II
STM 4896, STM 48 S

VDAT Recording Package
VDAT, VRC-128

Extras:
STS 2000P
STS 3000
STS 4000
STS 5000
Modular V2
GraphEQ /s
Vocodizer
PSY Q
MasterVerb Pro
OptiMaster
Arpeg 02
EDS 16i
Poison FM
SB404
Vectron
Volkszämpler (Windows only)

Further info available at this link: https://www.soundonsound.com/reviews/creamware-scope
Last edited by alberto on Sat Dec 30, 2017 4:07 am, edited 8 times in total.
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by alberto »

Thanks Bud, for clarifying about keys and stuff.

So, where do you guys want me to upload the Installation files of SFP 3.1c for Mac OS 9?


SFP_OS9_Installers_List.png
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by valis »

Since SonicCore has all the installers on their site, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to host it themselves (add to the ftp archive). However I can't speak on their behalf, just pointing out what makes sense. If getting the files to them proves difficult, just pm me or quote me and I'll give you a place to upload.

Also, please compress each of those folders before uploading anywhere =)
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by Bud Weiser »

valis wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:36 am Since SonicCore has all the installers on their site, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to host it themselves (add to the ftp archive). However I can't speak on their behalf, just pointing out what makes sense. If getting the files to them proves difficult, just pm me or quote me and I'll give you a place to upload.

Also, please compress each of those folders before uploading anywhere =)
Hosting those files on S|C ftp-site is a brilliant idea !

:)

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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by sunmachine »

See if the download links from the wayback machine work. I can't try at the moment (on my tablet):

SFP 3.1c for Mac: https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... _v3_1c.sit
Click on Nov. 6 and then a link should appear.

Version 4 for Mac: https://web.archive.org/web/*/http://ww ... orm4.0.sit
Click on Nov, 7.


EDIT: these should be the direct download links:
https://web.archive.org/web/20071106215 ... _v3_1c.sit
https://web.archive.org/web/20071107062 ... orm4.0.sit
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Re: Revival of Creamware Scope/SP from 2001 (15 DSP PCI)

Post by alberto »

valis wrote: Sat Dec 30, 2017 9:36 am Since SonicCore has all the installers on their site, I don't see why they wouldn't be willing to host it themselves (add to the ftp archive). However I can't speak on their behalf, just pointing out what makes sense. If getting the files to them proves difficult, just pm me or quote me and I'll give you a place to upload.

Also, please compress each of those folders before uploading anywhere =)
Good idea, that would probably be the most logical solution for Sonic Core too. But I see sunmachine has already kindly provided the compressed files, so no point for me to take care of that anymore, as they are already available. Good :) less work for me. cheers!
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