Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

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petal
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Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by petal »

For quite a while now I have had an ongoing project mapping my Push to several SCOPE synths.

This works fine when you initially map all the controllers you need. I have around 50 controllers/CC's in play for each synth.

Once I have mapped out the synth I off course want to save these cc assignments for later use.

And now for the problem: When I "recall" the midi controller preset the synth seems to change behavior both in sound and not all assigned CC's are stored in the preset?

Initially I thought that there was bug in some of the synths. I also thought that I had a flawed loaded synth/project and that was why the saved controller preset was flawed. This weekend I made sure that the latter at least was not the case.

I can live with a few "buggy" controllers that are not able to save the cc assignment in a midi preset, but why the change in sound of the whole synth?

I experience this behavior on: MINIMAX, PROFIT 5, PROONE, PRODESSEY and UKNOW.

Does anyone else in here have experience mapping SCOPE synth to midi-controllers?

Are there certain CC's that I should stay away from or are all the CC's on the MIDI CTRL Assignment-list available?


For reference here are links to the 2 earlier posts of my initial experience with this issue:
http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33307
http://forums.planetz.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=33501
Last edited by petal on Wed Feb 18, 2015 1:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.
petal
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by petal »

Having spend another 3-4 hours trying to figure out whats going on here, I'm pretty sure that the cc-assignment preset system is bugged somehow.
Exactly how the problem shows it self, changes depending on which synth you are working with, so maybe this is issolated to the individual synth.

These cc-presets doesn't only save the CC. When you recall a CC-preset, it changes the value on some of the assigned CC's, and these values can't be recalled by an init-preset once you have recalled the CC-preset, you have to find the affected (bugged) cc-controller and actively change it's value, then you can bring the synth into working order again with the cc mapped (those that are actually save in the cc-preset that is).

Damnit, I must litterally have spend days working on this idea of mine to map my SCOPE synths to my PUSH, and then the SCOPE-system that should support this pretty basic midi implementation "idea" is bugged.

Does SC keep an eye on this problem forum or should I write SC and tell them about this problem?

Will SC ever fix the bugs we have found so far???
petal
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by petal »

OK - I did some more testing.

This problem shows itself differently on SCOPE 4.5 PCI. Most seems to work as expected, although I'm still seeing some of the same behavior on MINIMAX, but Prodessey seems to work with the same preset that doesn't quite work on SCOPE 5.1 XITE.
jksuperstar
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by jksuperstar »

petal - which controllers do you use, and can you share some presets? It would be worth looking at to help understand this better.

I have a BCR2000, BCF2000, and a Launchpad and iPad/Lemur (both with "Push" like scripts for ableton).

I also can't say I have a bunch of synths using 50+ CCs. However, I'm in the process of moving in that direction, so the issues you have concern me. I'm also curious if ScopeSync would be completely immune to this issue, since the presets are handled very differently, and do not use the default scope mechanisms.
petal
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by petal »

Well, I'm simply assigning simple CC's to controllers on my SCOPE synth, which works at first, but once you have saved them and then recall that cc-preset the trouble begins.

MINIMAX seems to be the most affected synth I've tested. Especially the "Range"-knobs and the "Wave-type"-knobs.

Try to assign cc's to those knobs and save that cc-preset.

Now you unload the synth, reload it, load an INIT-patch/preset (basic saw, with an open filter) - test that it sounds as expected.

Then you recall the cc-preset from before and test the sound again. My bet is that you wont hear the sound as a basic saw anymore, if any sound at all.

You propably can make the synth work again if you give all the saved controllers/CC's a workout.
djmicron
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by djmicron »

tried with the minimax osc1 range and waveform, it looks like after loading the cc preset, it needs to receive the cc from the hardware controller to set the correct value and changing it with the mouse from the GUI doesn't work in the right way.

Test done on the xite-1.

I'll check with the sdk if something can be fixed.
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by djmicron »

checked deeper on the minimax, the bug is not related to saving the cc preset inside the preset list, it's enough to assign a cc number to one of the stepped selectors, such as range and waveform ones, after that, the pot on the GUI doesn't work correctly, when the selector is on the saw waveform it is on the saw/tri and you can't change it with the mouse, the saw waveform is not available when using the mouse, but it is when using the external controller and if you delete the controller assignment, the bug disappear.
On the minimax i've discovered all oscillators range and waveform selectors have this bug on the same step position, osc 3 waveform is saw up/down so it's less noticeable by ear, but i checked it with oscilloscope and it's there.

At the moment the stepped pots are the only ones i have discovered with this bug, i'll check tomorrow if a solution is possible on the protected device.
petal
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by petal »

Thanks for confirming my findings!

And yes, your description of the RANGE-selectors behavior sounds exactly like what I've been experiencing.

But it is not only the OSC-section that is affected. There is some strange behavior in the Envelope section as well. I still havn't figured out exactly what is going on here, but the "Decay"-knob has caught my attention. I'm not sure about this though, because it's behavior is linked to the "Decay"-button.

While you're at it. Could you maybe also look into the reason why no cc assigned buttons are saved in a preset!?

And last, the only knob I've found not being saved with the CC-preset (like with the buttons) in MINIMAX is the Chorus/Flanger "RATE"-knob.

Thanks again for chiming in, I'm looking forward to hear what you find!


Edit:
I meant the Decay-knob not the "sustain"-knob
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by JoPo »

petal wrote:These cc-presets doesn't only save the CC. When you recall a CC-preset, it changes the value on some of the assigned CC's, and these values can't be recalled by an init-preset once you have recalled the CC-preset, you have to find the affected (bugged) cc-controller and actively change it's value, then you can bring the synth into working order again with the cc mapped (those that are actually save in the cc-preset that is).
With STM mixer, you may have this random issue (random as I can't reproduce the behavior yet) : STM mixer CC assignment is "forgoten" when reloading the project, so I always save CC assignment, when you recall it, sometimes, you see a fader going down to 0db and you could believe you've lost it's value before it jumped down like this !..... I have a tip for this : you double clik on it, and it goes back to it's "double click" value, then you double click again on it, like the normal Scope fader/knob feature : double click on a fader/knob to go back to its middle value, double click on it again to go back to value it was set.

Maybe this technic will help you to find back the value the fader/knob was before you recall your CC assignment preset ? If you noticed which fader/knob lost its value... When you see such things, it's better to resave your CC asignment preset again, it should avoid to do it again (after setting back those stupid fader/knob to their normal value, of course !).
> > > > > > > > > > > > --- Musica --> here ! ---< < < < < < < < < < < <
petal
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Re: Midi Controller Assignments bugged?

Post by petal »

I tried your trick JoPo, but unfortunately it doesn't fix the problem we have here.

I also did some more testing tonight, this time with the UKNOW-synth both on the XITE and my PCI-system running SCOPE 4.5 and the CC-preset system is definitely bugged somehow!

Once you have reloaded a CC-preset you will not get correct behavior out of your synth again!

I can't quite figure out exactly what is wrong, but when I double check preset against another uknow running the exact same preset, the sound is not sounding right on the synth which has had a cc-preset loaded.


I'm giving up. I wont be spending more time on this project. I started the project in order to become more effecient actually producing music. Instead I have been spending countless hours bughunting inside Scope.

I will help other people who are trying to pursue this cc-preset-bug the best way I can, but I wont be digging more myself.

I believe my Scope system and I need some time away from each other. I'll be fooling around with my new friends: Live, Push and FS1R instead :)
petal
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by petal »

OK - one last observation. It's not exactly a workaround, but it will get you as close as you can get. Saving a project will also save most of the assigned cc's (might be the reason why this bug hasn't been found before now), without all the unpredictable behavior if you save and recall a cc-preset.

The cc-assigned buttons are still not being saved with the project and the wave-selector isn't exactly working correctly, when it comes to the MINIMAX, but at least some of the buttons are being saved with the PRODESSEY.

I havn't tried any other synths yet, but this seems to be the best way to work around the cc-preset-bug.

At least the effort wasn't a complete waste.
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by Bud Weiser »

petal wrote:OK - one last observation. It's not exactly a workaround, but it will get you as close as you can get. Saving a project will also save most of the assigned cc's (might be the reason why this bug hasn't been found before now), without all the unpredictable behavior if you save and recall a cc-preset.

The cc-assigned buttons are still not being saved with the project and the wave-selector isn't exactly working correctly, when it comes to the MINIMAX, but at least some of the buttons are being saved with the PRODESSEY.

I havn't tried any other synths yet, but this seems to be the best way to work around the cc-preset-bug.

At least the effort wasn't a complete waste.
Just a note:

In earlier posts I already mentioned wrong behaviour of Minimax´s OSC #1 Octave-Range knob,- regardless if assigning MIDI CCs or not.
In fact,- what you see isn´t what you get when it comes to dial in a 4' or 8' range.
For the "chickenhead" knob graphics,- there´s a difference of a fraction of a millimeter changing the range.
So, the functionality is there but it´s irritating graphics for any Minimoog player out there.
It exists w/ the PCI card as well as w/ XITE-1 and also exists in SCOPE 4.5 and not only in 5.1.

According to the MIDI-CC preset saving and recall,- I NEVER got the thing working like I wanted.
I did in depth programming of my Kurzweil PC3 controlling Minimax and B2003 p.ex. and every time I recalled projects or tried loading MIDI presets (I hoped these being saved/stored correctly),- all went nuts and I had to setup all new from scratch manually.

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U
petal
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by petal »

Oh - I didn't know others had discovered this before, damnit, it could saved me a lot of trouble.

Anyways, my "workaround", saving projects with the synths having cc's assigned seem to have similar problems as with the cc-presets. It might not be quite as bad, but the synths are not behvaing normally or as expected once you reload a project that has cc's assigned to knobs, buttons and sliders (Prodessey, Profit 5 and Uknow that I know of).

Actually this is starting to look as a really serious problem if you think about it. If you have cc's assigned in your project, then you can't trust that the project will work correctly upon reload!

SC really needs to look into this!
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Bud Weiser
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by Bud Weiser »

petal wrote: Actually this is starting to look as a really serious problem if you think about it.
Yes, it makes the system unusable live when you do more than trigger MIDI for notes and standard controllers like Pitchbend-, Modulation-Wheels and Sustain-Pedal and need fast loading total recall projects and/or controller (MIDI CC) presets.

It´s also a desaster in studio projects more or less when the demand is total recall, but less dramatic than in a live situation.
In the studio, you might find the time rebuilding your controller assigments, but there will be also situations where clients are present and time is money.
Not to forget to mention, clients always think it´s your fault and not the system.
petal wrote: SC really needs to look into this!
You won´t get any updates or bug fixes before SCOPE 6 appears, I fear.

Bud
S|C Scope/XITE-1 & S|C A16U, Scope PCI & CW A16U
hubird

Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by hubird »

I'm not sure this fix is even possible anymore.
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vascomusic
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by vascomusic »

hubird wrote:I'm not sure this fix is even possible anymore.
Yeah, I recently read that some Creamware documentation about plugin design has been completely lost :o
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garyb
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by garyb »

uh, what?

some original plugin working files are gone. that doesn't stop anyone from figuring out what happened. there aren't any lost secrets or anything, although plenty of documentation is gone. the important pieces of information are completely intact.

no, this stuff won't be fixed before v6 and v6 hit a wall. that's not because of old info being lost, it's because of new computers, operating systems and programming elements. that doesn't mean that it's impossible, it does mean that a lot of work needed to be scrapped. what can be done gets done.
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dante
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by dante »

Yes. Holger continues to work.
djmicron
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by djmicron »

a possible fix/workaround could be to use a device in the middle just for the midi cc messages, for example, we could develop a minimax interface(no audio) to be connected to the minimax midi in and clone the presets on this device, as the minimax works right with incoming midi cc's, then connect the hardware midi controller to that intermediate device.

Tried this workaround with some parameters and it works.

Tried some parameter range modification on the minimax inside scope sdk and it seemed to fix the waveform selector, but after saving the minimax and using it inside scope main software, it didn't work(device is protected), so for the moment the intermediate controller surface solution is the only effective workaround i've found.

Also for the midi cc that are not stored with the cc preset, it is possible with the sdk to save the minimax device with pre-assigned cc's, so that when you open it with scope, it is already mapped.

If you want to exactly see what values the minimax sends out when cc's are assigned, try a test, connect one minimax midi out to another minimax midi in, load on both devices the same cc preset, then start loading presets on the master minimax, you will see on the master minimax the buggy knobs on the right position, while you will see the knobs on the slaved minimax on the real position that is the reason for the wrong sound.

A generic midi surface can be made also with the modular, i could upload a device with named parameter then we have just to assign the same cc's to bot minimax and to the surface, then the hard job is to clone the presets, this could be made by connecting the minimax midi out to the surface midi in and just correct the wrong values.....
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Re: Midi CC presets bugged? - yes, confirmed!

Post by garyb »

if you have a fix, maybe contact Holger. he might be interested in some trade or ?....
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