Mixing in Scope - Device latencies/phase problems

[Yogimeister]

I use BCModular clocks in SCOPE to drive Ableton Live via a dedicated SCOPE Sequencer input (no other data on that port)

Can you please tell me how you set up scope to do this ?
Im trying to do that with cubase ... (I wrote about this before but ppl like frax spew so much ignorance and arrogance that its hard to actually get my questions across and get some help from the people who are actually willing to contribute it ... And thanx again guys ...)

[Yogimeister]

Btw - @Dante or anyone interested ...

Here is a tool to generate and analyze a "click test"
http://expressiveelectronicsformusician ... itter.html

[jksuperstar]

Yogi, sorry I didn't get to your PM yet. The clock isn't a device, but part if the modular modules from Sharc. The BCModular bundle includes a midi module that has clockk, as well as start/stop commands. Send clock out of the shell, and via Midi Sequencer device, pass it to your DAW. Then setup your DAW to lock to this external clock from scope. The same clock can drive scope devices, or external HW. This may or may not help your issues with midi latency and jitter out of the DAW, but it will lock external HW and the DAW to the same solid clock. For me, this is just as good as using a HW sequencer to create the MIDI clock.

[djmicron]

don't know if it's still a valid tutorial here_

http://www.tim-carter.com/index.php?t=M ... &ItemId=10


sorry if it's outdated, maybe not....

[Yogimeister]

Yogi, sorry I didn't get to your PM yet. The clock isn't a device, but part if the modular modules from Sharc. The BCModular bundle includes a midi module that has clockk, as well as start/stop commands. Send clock out of the shell, and via Midi Sequencer device, pass it to your DAW. Then setup your DAW to lock to this external clock from scope. The same clock can drive scope devices, or external HW. This may or may not help your issues with midi latency and jitter out of the DAW, but it will lock external HW and the DAW to the same solid clock. For me, this is just as good as using a HW sequencer to create the MIDI clock.

Yeah, I tried using this module (thats what i meant actually, not device) ....
I tried syncing it to cubase but it did not latch (I tried sending it via ASIO2, though ... i didnt try to send it on a midi connection - but I will try ...)

[Yogimeister]

don't know if it's still a valid tutorial here_

http://www.tim-carter.com/index.php?t=M ... &ItemId=10


sorry if it's outdated, maybe not....

Thanks ... Interesting read ...
I was just asking Gary about DirectMusic emulations ....

I might be trying that out in the future (as now basically the WindowsMIDI drivers also have a "use system timestamp" - and its very outdated in that sense ... (On the other hand, so are the SCOPEs

[Bud Weiser]

don't know if it's still a valid tutorial here_

http://www.tim-carter.com/index.php?t=M ... &ItemId=10


sorry if it's outdated, maybe not....

Yes, it is valid.
There´s lot from Jay Levitt in that article and you see his webadress at the bottom.
I was in contact w/ him already in may 2004 and have stored several emails here.
Same w/ Evert van der Poll who ran "Earthvegaconnections" and coded the best DirectMusic driver for Windows XP ever.
That driver was payware and 32Bit and it was for the Opcode/MusicQuest 8PortSE parallel port MIDI interface.
To my surprise, for a short time and before the website disappeared, that driver was available also in 64Bit but I missed buying it early enough unfortunately.

Under Win XP SP3 32Bit w/ Reaper and the 8PortSE using that DirectMusic driver, connected to a ASUS P5WD2 Premium motherboard´s parallel port, the MIDI timing was significantly better compared to usage of Cubase SX-3 and Midex-8 connected to USB.
Same ruled w/ my older and now retired ASUS P4T-E mobo and Win XP SP2 ...
In the past, I did all these tests w/ the MIDItime and MIDItest applications available.

I think I´ll keep using Win XP 32Bit as long as my old hardware runs for DAW because for me it works.
Going 64Bit means losing old hardware and drivers and probably actually good MIDI timing too.

Bud

[Yogimeister]

Thanx ...

The ironic thing is - I dont really have/need external hardware control ...
I am actually trying to better the midi between my sequencer and the scope environment
(so it will be totally messed up (and ironic) if my end solution would another midi interface that will feed midi into scope and the scope synths ....)

Gary says that running scope via DirectMusic protocol is useless and not relevant - but I might give it a try anyway (after trying the BC clock again ...and if it helps the "delay effect devices" and stuff it would be a plus - because for me at the moment they also dont sound "right")

[garyb]

no, i said that it wasn't your problem, but i'm more than happy to be wrong about this. it just depends on how tight it needs to be. if you can use an emulated driver and everything works properly, i think that's great. there is a lot that has changed in computer operating systems over the years, during the win 98 and early XP days, emulated drivers were always the kiss of death. i'm sure that DirectMusic might be improved. it's for windows soundvards though, and a Scope card isn't a windows soundcard...

[Yogimeister]

But its currently using "Windows MIDI" format ...

The" useless" part is regarding your "windows is windows and MIDI is midi ..." Vibe.
(Though this midi jitter seems to happen on mac as well ...)

[garyb]

yeah, well you don't want to hear me, but a computer isn't really designed to handle midi, a standard that is already subject to jitter, in a timely fashion. computers are NOT realtime devices. for most users, computer midi timing is more than perfect. for you, probably not so much.

i hope that your efforts are worthwhile. it's not like i'm against you or something.

[Yogimeister]

I hear ya ...

At the end of the day Im just trying to get "the most" out of scope (and my setup) - and something which I think is technologically reasonable ....

Technically there is no reason for midi jitter (as far as I understand) BECAUSE its not realtime events ... Its just metadata about upcoming "events" - it should be handled with ease with a small buffer and a timestamp ....

But again - Im not trying to make up logic in this scenario - I am trying to find how to best use my tools in order to achieve my manifastation of sound)....

[fra77x]

The MIDI Specification was published in August 1983

There are no timestamps in midi.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MIDI

MIDI timestamping

One solution to MIDI timing problems is to mark MIDI events with the times they are to be played, and store them in a buffer in the MIDI interface ahead of time. Sending data beforehand reduces the likelihood that a busy passage will send a large amount of information that will overwhelm the transmission link. Once stored in the interface, the information is no longer subject to timing issues associated with USB jitter and computer operating system interrupts, and can be transmitted with a high degree of accuracy.[103] MIDI timestamping only works when both the hardware and software support it. MOTU's MTS, eMagic's AMT, and Steinberg's Midex 8 were implementations that were incompatible with each other, and required users to own software and hardware manufactured by the same company in order to gain its benefits.[45] Timestamping is built into FireWire MIDI interfaces[104] and Mac OS X Core Audio.

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/Oct02/a ... an1002.asp

[Yogimeister]

I reqlly dont know why Im wasting my breath on you and your remarks ... But this is also relevant to the discussion with gary/directmusic and all that stuff so : just a quick google of "MIDI timestamp" (try it , you douche)

"
For playback of hardware devices, Live also generates timestamps that it attempts to communicate to the MIDI interface drivers for scheduling of outgoing MIDI events. Windows MME drivers cannot process timestamps, however, and for devices that use these drivers, Live schedules outgoing events internally.
"

[fra77x]

[garyb]

wow!

ok, this is degenerating to a level that might become toxic and unacceptable quickly. please stop.

[fra77x]

degenerating... ts ts ts

[garyb]

thank ye.

of course, it takes two to tango. the other dance partner needs to cool out, too...

[fra77x]

Me sorry for the inappropriate post. Often i can't resist...

[garyb]