revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

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odlumb
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revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by odlumb »

On my older desktop system, using internal Creameware cards, I used to get this error message from time to time. Never frequently enough or consistently enough to be a serious problem. And I also assumed it really was an error associated with the PCI bus. Now I'm not so sure.

I have a new system now, a laptop connected to an XITE-1. Because of my living environment/situation, about 80% of the time I'm using headphones. But when the house is empty and it's not the middle of the night, or when I just need to do a final mix, I run the sound through my close field monitors (Samson ResolvSE 6). The monitors are on a separate power switch, no reason to have them turned on and consuming power when I'm not using them.

So here's the deal - EVERY TIME I turn on the monitors, I get the "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error. I do mean EVERY TIME, without fail. Nothing on the computer changes. I don't even touch the computer, I simply turn on the power switch (on a separate panel) to send power to the monitors. In fact, this happens even when the computer is in a very idle state, doing nothing else except running the SCOPE software.

OK, I'm no hardware engineer, but I am a software engineer, and I can not understand how/why turning on my monitors, which are connected to my system only via the XLR cables from the speaker ports on the XITE-1 backplane to the speaker cabinets, causes a SOFTWARE error. What is going on here? There should be no change regarding the PCI bus whatsoever simply by powering on the monitors.

This makes me wonder if there isn't a design flaw in the hardware somewhere in the XITE-1. A change in voltage on the pins of the speaker ports on the back plane should not be detectible by the hardware system, let alone the software system. Can anyone explain to me what's going on? If I understood how this was even possible I might be able to hunt for a solution, but as it stands now, it appears to be a design flaw in the XITE-1 system which no amount of system tweaking on my computer is going to resolve. Any ideas?
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garyb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by garyb »

there aren't speaker ports on the XITE. there are analog outs and aes/ebu outs, which are you using?

perhaps the speakers are drawing a lot of power when they start and the power supply on the computer is seeing a voltage sag. it's not that likely, but it's possible. why are the speakers off when the system is started? maybe if you post a screenshot of the project enabled at the time you turn on speakers, it might be more clear what is happening.

do you get the error and then everything works correctly from then on?

what components is your computer made from?
odlumb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by odlumb »

> there aren't speaker ports on the XITE. there are analog outs and aes/ebu outs, which are you using?
I'm using the XLR analog out ports.

> perhaps the speakers are drawing a lot of power when they start and the power supply on the computer is seeing a voltage sag. it's not that likely, but it's possible.
The speakers are on a separate switch from a rack mounted PDU. The computer is a laptop with it's own battery. I will experiment with putting the speakers on a separate circuit from the main box, but I give this almost no chance of making a difference. As you say, it's not likely.

>why are the speakers off when the system is started?
Because 70% of the time I'm working at this computer I'm not using them, but earphones instead.

>maybe if you post a screenshot of the project enabled at the time you turn on speakers, it might be more clear what is happening.
I habitually use two or three different projects. none of them tax the DSP capacity of the XITE-1 even 50%. The error is independent of the SCOPE project that is loaded. A snapshot of my usual project is attached. The speakers are accessed through the Analog Destination Device attached to the mixer's [STDL/STDR]

>do you get the error and then everything works correctly from then on?
I have to quite SCOPE (and Cubase and Reason and anything else which may have been in use at the time of the error), cycle the power switch on the XITE-1, and restart SCOPE to get going again.

>what components is your computer made from?
My (current) computer is a Lenovo W520 laptop, connected to the XITE-1 via the Express Card slot. It a very fast machine, 32 Gigs of RAM, all SSD drives. More capable really than most of the desktops I have built in the past, except of course for graphics.
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garyb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by garyb »

ok, a laptop.

i wouldn't run the laptop on battery. i don't see any way that a PCI overflow message could be connected in any way to turning on the speakers. maybe if you accidently moved the expresscard connection...

how can you possibly use 32gb of ram and also the STS sampler? the STS only works in 32bit windows and 32bit windows can't use 32gb of ram...

sure, there's nothing bad about your laptop, i'm just asking questions to try to understand what happened. i wasn't there and i don't see a screenshot of the error message. you shouldn't be having a PCI overflow message on that machine unless you pack it with ASIO connections and high-end reverbs. the weak link in the physical chain would be the expresscard and the expresscard slot, and the hdmi cable because these things can be dislodged or only partially inserted.

again, just turning on a pair of speakers isn't the issue. just fyi, it's best that anything connected to your audio system in anyway should really be on the same electrical circuit(doesn't have to be the same plug). the reason is to minimize the chances of a ground loop hum. the speakers, computer and XITE should all get power from the same place.
Fluxpod
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by Fluxpod »

That is probably a Problem with sending a short spike to the ground.
This is a problem with expresscards and the connection to ground.Several apple laptops had this with rme expresscards.When you touched the laptop or turned something on the card lost connection to small current on the connection to/from the expresscardslot.

This is as far as i know not fixable.The current can slip in thru the xite powerconnection or the laptop psu or thru the connection to the speakers via ground.
You can try to float the ground in the xlr cables and/or put the speakers on another circuit.
Good Luck.
odlumb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by odlumb »

>how can you possibly use 32gb of ram and also the STS sampler? the STS only works in 32bit windows and 32bit windows can't use 32gb of ram...

When I'm up and running with Cubase and Reason in Rewire mode using lots of different synths like East/West Play and many others I can easily fill 25+ Gigs with SAMPLES. Although the STS is loaded in the SCOPE project I rarely use it anymore. It seems to still work with soundfonts just fine, even when everything else is running 64 bit. It the STS doesn't work in 64 bit mode, why/how can I load it?

>sure, there's nothing bad about your laptop, i'm just asking questions to try to understand what happened. i wasn't there and i don't see a screenshot of the error message. you shouldn't be having a >PCI overflow message on that machine unless you pack it with ASIO connections and high-end reverbs. the weak link in the physical chain would be the expresscard and the expresscard slot, and the >hdmi cable because these things can be dislodged or only partially inserted.

As I mentioned previously, this error appears (reliably) when I power on the speakers. It has nothing to do with software load. SCOPE can be the only thing running and it still occurs. The error message about reaching PCI capacity limit is what appears on screen, but it's not an accurate description of what's actually happening. Scope has detected (software trapped) that something abnormal has occurred, and this is the only error message in it's arsenal to describe what it "thinks" happened.

>again, just turning on a pair of speakers isn't the issue. just fyi, it's best that anything connected to your audio system in anyway should really be on the same electrical circuit(doesn't have to be the >same plug). the reason is to minimize the chances of a ground loop hum. the speakers, computer and XITE should all get power from the same place.

I agree it should be the same circuit to reduce noise, and it is. The speakers, computer, and XITE-1 all get power from the same place, but with different on/off switches.

The comment from Fluxpod regarding the Express Card and a ground spike makes some sense. I have never liked Express Cards, they are VERY sensitive, both mechanically and electrically. I will try putting my speakers on a completely different power circuit independent of the XITE-1 and see if that makes a difference.

Thanks to all for your input, it is much appreciated.
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garyb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by garyb »

the STS does not work properly in 64bit windows. period.
you can use it if you like, though.

a ground loop spike should be possible to work around by turning on the speakers before you start working and by connecting everything to the same ground, speakers, computer and XITE.
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by djmicron »

off topic: windows 7 32bit can use 32 gigabytes of ram by enabling pae, the max ram per process is 3 gigabytes, i'm using it and it's stable, only issue is on intel integrated gpu driver that doesn't work.

I see on your project that you are using the soundcard destination module, which soundcard is involved with it?

About the speakers, the problem only happens when you switch on the power when scope is running, so if you power them before running scope is everything ok?

Have you tried using a ups unit?
I'd try to connect a ups unit to the xite and/or to the speakers and/or to the laptop to see if it solves the issue.
odlumb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by odlumb »

Hi djmicron, thanks for your input.

Both the speakers and the XITE-1 are running through a UPS, although there is no reason for the speakers to be wired that way. Everything (computer et. al.) is currently running off the same house circuit.

Nothing I have tried changes the scenario. True, I can switch on the speakers prior to booting SCOPE, but as I said in previous posts, I leave the speakers off because 80% of the time I'm using headphones, and there is no reason to pay for the electricity.

The only time this becomes a real pain in the ass is the following scenario:

I have Cubase running, with several synths loaded to the gills with samples. Reason is also running in rewire mode. I'm using headphones. Then, for a variety of possible reasons, I want to switch to speakers. I have to save and close the Cubase project, save and exit Reason, exit Cubase, exit SCOPE, turn on the speakers, start SCOPE again, start Cubase again, start Reason again, load the Reason project file again, load the Cubase project file again, wait for all the samples for all the synths to be loaded from disk. On a large project this can easily take five minutes before I'm back to work again. And all this is because SCOPE/XITE-1 can't deal with a ground spike, not on the Express Card connection, but ON THE SPEAKER CABLE CONNECTION!

I have to live with this, there is no solution (except leave the speakers on all the time). But the strangest thing of all is that if I don't do all of the above, SCOPE reports a PCI Capacity Limit Reached error. How SCOPE detected/trapped this change in electrical status, and how it decided to select this particular error to report, is exactly where I would start looking in the software to fix the problem. But alas, I don't have access to the source code. And I'm quite positive that no-one at Sonic Core can be bothered with this problem. I have probably a hundred "issues" just like this one, with dozens of different applications. It's very frustrating to be unable to fix a problem just because one doesn't have access to the source code (talk to Microsoft) ;-)
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garyb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by garyb »

source code won't help you. it's not a software issue.

unplug the speakers fromn the XITE and try turning the speakers on/off. do you get an error?

how much energy are you saving by turning off the speakers instead of leaving them idling when they're not turned up?
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by odlumb »

The event is trapped. Software does that. Some events that are trapped can be investigated further (error codes, etc.) to determine how best to handle the event, or ignore it under certain conditions.

I was a Senior Software Engineer specializing in real-time embedded systems for 15 years, working at a Fortune 500 company. In my experience, access to the source code is the ONLY thing that helps, even when all the hardware engineers swear otherwise ;-)

> unplug the speakers from the XITE and try turning the speakers on/off. do you get an error?
No.

I'm not complaining Gary. My opinion of Sonic Core and XITE-1 is extremely high. I'm just looking for ways to streamline my personal workflow. In the case of this particular annoyance, it was worth asking if anyone else had encountered the problem and/or found a solution.

As far as I know, the amps in the speakers consume the same amount of power whether the volume is cranked up or not. I would need some instruments which I don't have here to verify this assumption.

In the US, where I live part of the year, the power consumed by leaving the speakers on all the time is negligible. In the mountains of Spain, where I live the other part of the year, electricity is bloody expensive.

I consider this "case" closed. I have spent too much time already looking for an answer. I'm living with the annoyance in peace.
soren_jepsen
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by soren_jepsen »

odlumb, I have the same problem as you.

I'm on a 64bit win7 pc. I don't get the error as consistently as you, but it is without question linked to turning on my set of active speakers. I'm holding my breath every time I power on the speakers :-)

I have a feeling it's related to the spike back thru the xlr cable. I don't have the speakers grounded, but I'll try that when I get the chance.


Cheers
djmicron
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by djmicron »

from what it's described, i think it's not a software issue, it's a hardware issue.
I tried reproducing your problem, i switched off the xite while scope is running and i got some error messages.
In my test i completely switched off the xite, in your case i think for a very short time amount the xite has been disconnected due to a voltage variation and i can't say if it's on the xite side or on the laptop side, but for sure it's hardware related.
If you prefer not having your speakers powered on, i guess they are very big active speakers, so how do you switch them on? I mean, are you using the switch on the speakers, or are you using some external switch, maybe the switch is the cause.
Also it's not a good practice to hot plug/unplug (power on/power off)the xite when the system is running, better a system reboot.
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garyb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by garyb »

agreed.

well a workaround might be to disconnect the speakers until they have been powered on. i'm sorry to see the problem.
jhulk
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by jhulk »

you should not get a spike down the xlr they should be isolated from psu as if its an xlr it balanced and there will be a debalancing circuit either a high end trafo or a ic chip

the ground will be to chasis or if its floating it will be connected to the ic or de balancing trafo

if not its a bad design and you could easily get ground loops

but if your xite is connected to the same socket strip as the speakers then you could get a power spike

anti surge capacitors can prevent this and remove noise from the supply you can buy socket strips with them

but also a good surge box is better

run power from fuse board to a surge box then from there to another little fuse board and then your room sockets come from there

you also then drive a earth rod 3meter into the ground attach a 25mm earth cable and run that to the surge box then you will have a clean earth
jhulk
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by jhulk »

you can also build a attenuator box take the xlr from xite to a box a floating transformer a balanced switch attenuator then to a floating transformer

any spikes down the xlr will be taken by the floating trafo as the +/- hot/cold signal is only passed through the attenuator the ground is floating

the input ground is only connected to the xite

the output ground is only connected to the active speakers
odlumb
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by odlumb »

Thanks to all for the great ideas.

Please allow me to clarify. I never said it wasn't a HARDWARE problem. I believe it IS a HARDWARE problem. But it's a hardware problem which is being trapped/detected by the software, and thus the possibility of simply ignoring it, or taking corrective measures, might exist. But this sort of thing can only be determined if one has access to the source code.

I think putting an attenuator box or an XLR switch box between the speakers and the XITE-1 might solve the problem. If I can find an inexpensive solution, I will purchase it and try it out. If anyone out there has experience with such a product they can recommend, please let me know.

What I'm not willing to do is spend a lot of money, or a lot of time building something. The problem is just not that serious. And when I'm in the US, my speakers are on all the time and so I don't encounter the problem at all.

Again, thanks to all for your suggestion and assistance, greatly appreciated.
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by jhulk »

http://www.goldpt.com/sa2x.html

elma switches are the best in the business if you dont want to build your own then goldpoint are the best for buying

but building your own is very rewarding and you get to choose the iron as i now brian sowter i get mine custom made from him as they are hand wound

and he can follow spec drawings a 4 pole switch 10k pre solders 0.1% resistor is £45

you only have to solder 8 wires for a stereo unit fully balanced
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t_tangent
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by t_tangent »

I can certainly vouch for the Goldpoint, I have the SA1X, and it is simple but does the job brilliantly, no signal degradation whatsoever. Turning the knob to 0 effectively means no signal is sent through which is what you want when turning the DAW and other gear on and off without having spikes possibly damage the monitors, just in case the monitors have been turned on first or off last by mistake :), then just turn up the SA1X to suit when Scope project is loaded up. Custom job would be a great project though and if I knew Brian Sowter I would have done the same as jhulk as well, haha...you lucky chap you jh :)

Having said that Goldpoint do also sell individual switches and other parts. Check out the switches and also be sure to read their FAQ section http://www.goldpt.com/info.html
jhulk
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Re: revisit "PCI Capacity Limit Reached" error...

Post by jhulk »

goldpoint buy the switches from elma

and they dont make them all there info is from the elma datasheet

bullshit baffles brains they do make out that its there resistors and design but elma make them they just buy them and install them

elma also do a electronic fader version switch which is totally electronic you can cascade them for mixers and have a spi connection so a simple micro controller with an spi interface can control the switches a tactile fader box for the spi of a sharc anyone as control surface for a scope mixer protools style all in 32bit control ?????!!!!

switches dont suffer from degradation like pots or faders as they are shorting types

but any 10k/10k balancing trafo will do

in states i would go for jenson to make a box you need 2 10k/10k trafo 4 dual trs/xlr gold sockets 1 switch a bit of wire and a case and a knob takes about 2 hours start to finish for a big knob control box for active monitors
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