Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

An area for people to discuss Scope related problems, issues, etc.

Moderators: valis, garyb

Eanna
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by Eanna »

jksuperstar wrote: Basically, I use the latency monitor and windows task manager to find what eats IRQ time, memory, or other resources, and see what I can kill there.
Thank you JK, that's solid advice. I would be familiar with taskmanager to help choose what to disable, but coupling that with the latency monitor is a great idea.
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...
User avatar
53E7
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:45 am
Location: New York

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by 53E7 »

I learned that after XP, Windows basically phased out MIDI Manager. Vista, Windows 7 + 8 do not have MIDI management. Devices are basically left to sort it out amongst themselves who gets what resources. This would explain why I randomly get three variations in Ableton in my preferences for my MIDI (Scope Midi, 2-Scope Midi, and 3-Scope Midi). I have three cards and Windows sees these as three possible devices and randomly selects which one it will be my MIDI device at that particular startup.

Well I found the ultimate “end all” solution for the problem. There is a very old and very famous freeware that I would STRONGLY recommend for any 32 bit Scope users called MIDI Ox and MIDI Yoke. It is a very simple MIDI management/patch program that still works perfect with Windows 7 (32 bit only).

http://www.midiox.com/

For 64 bit users there is a similar program called bome's midi translator which is not free and I have not tried. I found it during my research so I thought it may be helpful to someone else.

http://www.bome.com/products/miditranslator

The solution is very simple. I made profiles in MIDI Ox for each of the three possible variations that may randomly show up for what will be my Scope MIDI device.

Image

Image

I have Ableton setup to use specific MIDI Yoke inputs and outputs. No matter which random Scope MIDI device shows up, it doesn’t really matter since I can sort all that out easily in MIDI Ox. MIDI Ox will always offer a stable output. I no longer have to re-select MIDI outputs each time I open an Ableton file to work on!

Image
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by garyb »

actually, this looks like Live is messed up since midiyoke/ox and bome's all use the same driver that Live would. oh well, whatever works...
User avatar
53E7
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:45 am
Location: New York

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by 53E7 »

It is a Windows / Scope problem. To verify this download the freeware Dos Box

http://www.dosbox.com/download.php?main=1

In Dos Box type then press enter:

mixer /listmidi

The results will show up what your MIDI devices are. If you see the screen grab notice Scope PCI MIDI 1. Windows will randomly pick Scope 1, Scope 2,or Scope 3. I check Dos Box before I open Scope, Ableton, or anything.

Image

Gary, you are in a position to fix this. THIS IS WINDOWS / SCOPE PCI DRIVER PROBLEM. Please forward this information to Sonic Core. They need to look at the PCI driver and adjust it so that Windows 7 knows how to handle multiple cards and allocate the correct MIDI output and not show multiple MIDI outputs as it does now. This is important that they know about this problem NOW since Scope 6 is still in development. This CAN AND SHOULD be resolved with the next release.
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by garyb »

wrong on two counts.

first, i'm not the one who could fix such a thing, although i'd be happy to pass this to someone who could.

second, if it was a Scope/windows thing, those midi loopback programs wouldn't work either. they use the Scope midi driver EXACTLY the same way as a sequencer. it does not matter which driver WINDOWS might grab. the problem is which driver that ABLETON grabs. this has nothing to do with windows. it's ABLETON's midi implimentation. those are the virtual midi drivers which are enabled in the device manager, not individual drivers for each card as you suppose.

there are as many midi in and outputs as YOU enable in Windows. to add more, just add more sequencer midi source/dest modules. Scope will ask if you want to enable more drivers. those virtual drivers will show up in the device manager. it's ALWAYS been like this. a Scope card is NOT a windows sound/midi card. as far as Windows knows, Scope is a piece of external hardware. Windows CANNOT see the individual card i/os.
Eanna
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by Eanna »

Hi, you don't need to set midiox ports in the control surfaces drop downs if you are routing Midi to scope on those ports.
That section is only for associating Midi Remote Scripts with a Midi port.

It shouldn't affect anything, but its not required..

As Gary said, the number of virtual Midi ports available to windows is a function of the number of sequencer Midi in and out devices you added to your scope project..

I find it best when I use a set number of these devices in my all my scope projects. All scope projects I create are versions of a standard project template, with a mixer, basic audio io by named External Devices, and two Midi io devices..
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...
User avatar
53E7
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:45 am
Location: New York

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by 53E7 »

The same thing happens in Cubase and Reaper. But, whatever. It's not happening to you and it doesn't involve an X-ite sale so what does it matter, right?
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by garyb »

Reaper and Cubase 100% working here.
User avatar
53E7
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:45 am
Location: New York

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by 53E7 »

Well, like I said......
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by garyb »

like i said, midiox et al use the same midi driver as the sequencer does, no difference.

this is also an isolated problem. there's nothing to be fixed.
User avatar
dante
Posts: 5043
Joined: Sat Nov 24, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: Melbourne Australia
Contact:

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by dante »

I would say if a few simple rules are followed then if there are any problems its an issue with the host app. Check out
the 'Cubase Port Setup' tab in this article :

http://www.hitfoundry.com/issue_12/pcx_mast.htm

1) Use the correct startup sequence (Scope XITE and Scope PCI first followed by Cubase)
2) Scope PCI project always has x Sequencer MIDI Sources (in my case 3)
3) Scope XITE project always has x Sequencer MIDI Source (in my case 2)

The projects shown on other tabs (Scope PCI setup and Scope XITE setup) only have 1 single sequencer midi source each - so the absentees from Scope project are detected and marked as INACTIVE in Cubase. Only in this case would I need to 'retweak' those check boxes if I added more Sequencer MIDI Sources to Scope whilst Cubase was till open (or between close/restart).

But sticking to the 3 rules above should see the Host app (Cubase or Live) always enumerating the correct number of ports without ever having to tweak MIDI Port Setup.

Host app should always see what Scope exposes, then its up to host app setup to remember its own settings or not. Seems thats the rule and its up to Host app to comply.
User avatar
53E7
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:45 am
Location: New York

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by 53E7 »

This is a problem I never had in XP that has now followed me two motherboards and many fresh installs of Windows 7 later. I am posting here because it is a problem solving forum and I am confining the conversation to this thread only (and not hijacking every thread about this). I am trying to work this problem out that DOES exist. I am reporting results that I am getting as I struggle with this.

Gary, if you don’t have a solution to the problem, please just stay out of this conversation. Don’t tell me there is no problem between Scope and Windows 7, because clearly I’m having one. It is well known that after XP people have been having MIDI problems with Windows. I understand as the company rep. you’re defending the platform, but really, stomping this tread down is just not necessary. Of course if you have a positive suggestion, please come forward with it, and yes do pass this on to Sonic Core. That is all I was asking you to do.
Eanna
Posts: 615
Joined: Fri Dec 02, 2011 1:57 am
Location: Ireland

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by Eanna »

Starting from a clean system, with no Scope Midi device showing in DosBox:
If you open Scope, load a clean project, with no sequencer Midi io devices, then use dosbox, how many Midi devices do you see? There should be none.
Then add five sequencer Midi ins, and use dosbox, then you see five scope outs?
Then add say four sequencer Midi outs, you see four scope Midi ins?

(You'll see what Gary meant - these midi devices are not anything to do with physical cards - they're software, virtual ports, the same as midiox ports).

Is this your experience?

Note that I have not tried this myself, as I don't want to mess with what works. But if you decide to do this, it may aid with diagnosis and understanding.
As with any system stuff, always create a Restore Point beforehand, lest you balls up your Windows installation.

I do recall in my early days with Scope, I had a Scope Midi device showing up as yellow/orange in my Midi Track/Sync/Remote list in Ableton preferences. I didn't know what caused it - tried a few things over two nights, and reverted to remove all "Scope Midi" entries manually from the Windows Registry. As it turned out, it did solve my problem...
But on reflection, what I think I did wrong was that I hadn't standardised on a set number (two in my case) Sequencer Midi In's and Out's in Scope projects - I had been working off a Scope Project for a while that had a two such Midi devices in my Scope project, but it got so crowded and confusing that I was starting to forget what inserts I had in my mixers that were chewing DSP, so I started afresh with just one Midi I/O device. Can't say I noticed much going wrong for the first while - I was (probably) always selecting Scope Midi 1 as the Midi To port in Ableton (have Instument Rack presets saved in my User Library that route Midi to Scope and Audio back over ASIO)... and then I spotted the yellow/orange entry for Scope Midi 2, which led me down the Registry route.

And yes, before I messed about with the registry, I did create a Restore Point. In fact, I probably did a System Backup to my emergency USB HD...

All Scope can do is create and destroy these virtual Midi devices in Windows.
AFAIK, you should always use Scope to remove Sequencer Midi devices from Projects - this is the trigger to uninstall the corresponding Midi Device in Windows.

When you ran this DosBox session, did you have Scope open? And had it just one Sequencer Source device?
If you expect to see Scope 1, 2 and 3 in DosBox, then try starting Scope, add three Sequencer Midi devices (source and dest each), then remove them. Does this appear to clear out all Scope Midi Devices from Ableton? And DosBox reports none too? It's possible that DosBox command 'mixer /listmidi' may only present active Midi devices...

I'm on Win7 32-bit btw, on a Dell Precision stock desktop machine with a Xeon W3530... I was on Live 8 when I had those problems - I'm on Suite 9 now...

Its frustrating for you - it's tough when Scope's flexibility ends up appearing to let you down... Hopefully, what I've said will trigger something for you...
Not because it is easy, but because it is hard...
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by garyb »

i'm hardly stomping down the thread. more like i'm letting you know that this is an issue with YOUR computer.

a driver can't just work right for some apps and not others unless there is something different between those apps. if that's the case, the app that doesn't work is probably the problem.

a driver can't work on a program on one computer and then not on another computer running the same program. if Cubase and Reaper work in both 32 and 64bit windows 7 systems here, then they work, period. there is nothing to report to S|C. how you setup your project and machine might make a difference, but that wouldn't be a problem with the driver.

what i'm doing is helping you to be able to rule out one variable. it's not a problem between windows and the midi driver. i know it would be convienient to have found something to blame, but it's not the driver in this case. again, midiox, bome's, dosbox, all use the same driver. the driver is NOT dependant on which card is recognized. windows does not see the individual cards, except to recognize their exisitance in the slots. all the exchange of data is handled as though the multiple cards were one big card.
User avatar
53E7
Posts: 182
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 11:45 am
Location: New York

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by 53E7 »

I boot up and then open Dos Box. Scope is not open and there are no music programs open. When I check which MIDI output Windows is recognizing in DOS Box, there is always Microsoft Wavetable Synth and one of three variations of Scope:

Scope PCI MIDI 1
2- Scope PCI MIDI 1
3- Scope PCI MIDI 1

I Tried using only one PCI card and the same thing is happening. That is why I suspect it is at the very least a Windows 7 problem. It cannot be an Ableton problem as the problem occurs at a core level. Ableton is merely picking up what Windows has chosen at startup.

I believe this can be fixed in the Scope PCI driver, but I will concede that it could very well be my hardware. I have found MIDI Ox and it serves as a workaround so I am going to stick with it until I can find a better solution. I must use MIDI Ox because I cannot re-organize each MIDI output of every instrument in my Ableton project, everytime I want to work on it. That just makes me too angry to want to make music.

I really want to thank everyone who has tried to help me. I’ve tried every suggestion. I hope this thread helps anyone who has the misfortune of getting this problem as MIDI Ox does offer a consistent MIDI output solution. I am going to upgrade to Ableton 9 in the near future, so I will post my results (for better or worse).
User avatar
garyb
Moderator
Posts: 23248
Joined: Sun Apr 15, 2001 4:00 pm
Location: ghetto by the sea

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by garyb »

i'm glad you can work.

you can adjust how many virtual midi ports are available(and how many show up in dosbox) by adjusting the number in the device manager entry for the main card.
ikemhla
Posts: 59
Joined: Mon Apr 18, 2011 2:08 am

Re: Disappearing MIDI Problem in DAW (Ableton)(SOLVED)

Post by ikemhla »

Hi,

How many Midi drivers appear in Win 7 is set up in Win 7 Device manager.

Under the Scope Driver Tag.

I use Ableton 9 and have used all versions of this program.

One has to accept its idiosyncrasies and get to work with them.

The program has shortcomings.

1)For Instance even if you save a project, Ableton will not recognize the Audio Ins and Outs of the project and you have to
manually reset them each time you boot up that project.

I also get unexplained Midi delays depending on what I have Rewired to Ableton, In My Case Reason or Melodyne.

Another annoying thing is that Ableton,s VST implementation is not that cute. I have resorted to directing Ableton to use the Sonar
VST folder which easily gets picked up by any VST Pluggin I install.

I have noted in other Fora that pple using Mellodyne can only use it i rewire mode because on installation Mellodyne and other VST
pluggins will not see the Ableton VST folder. The Mellodyne Bridge is not available. Making Ableton use the Sonar VST folder makes
the Mellodyne Bridge available to Ableton.

The Scope Platform is a very stable environment with a clean and lovely Sound. It however needs a bit of effort to set it up to work with software that in most cases is not properly coded.

If you are on Ableton there are issues one has to live with or that need to be addressed with Ableton not wit Sonic Core.

Lets face it, Sonar has problems with ASIO/MME drivers on Scope. But that is not a SCOPE problem. Other programs work fine with the Scope ASIO and MME drivers.

Im sorry if I seem to be blowing the Scope Trumpet, but Ive been on the platform since TrippleDat and few can match its flexibility or Sound.

Regards
Post Reply