Hi All -
I have recently switched to cubase sx from logic 5.5.1 on windows XP.
when running scope under logic i had to set the process buffer range in the logic asio settings to jumbo to avoid glitching with scope when moving other windows around while logic was playing back.
Now I am running cubase and am finding the same glitching again. This time it seems worse! with cubase's vst performance on 55% and hitting play(without moving any other windows) i get loads of clicks crackles glitches and pops. the meters on the stm 4896 are not displaying the levels in real time - kind of like half speed. If i mute some plugins and take the vst performance down to 50 % it almost works like it did in logic. but when i move windows around or even touch a fader it really glitches out bad. my dsp load in scope is just over 50%
totally not maxxing out the system. if i put more plugins on in cubase, taking the vst load up to 70% (just by enabling all the plugins i was running in the logic version of the song ) the stm4896 meters don't update the whole thing is a crackling shuddering mess.
in logic I was using the asio1 32-source 64 driver, on a winxp machine with 1gb ram/p4 3.2 ghz with musicxp tweaks all done. In the example above I've was trying the asio2 flt 64 driver to take advantage of cubases32 bit engine. of course it takes more resorces from scope to run the higher spec driver so I've dropped back to the asio1 32-source 64 for the moment.
Can anyone suggest any tweaks to cubase in the way that i tweaked logic?
thanks in advance
Andrew
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http://www.organicrecords.net
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andrew on 2005-09-05 05:41 ]</font>
SX2.2 and Scope - glitching BAD
I'm surprised that no one else has this issue with Cubase SX and Scope. Since this is the same issue I was getting running logic 5.5.1 (see http://tinyurl.com/afwkd) i can only surmise that it's a problem with Scope.
In the above mentioned post i was sending my outputs to the scope inputs for mixing inside scope, as I have been in logic and was now hoping to in cubase, however I’ve seen that the glitching still occurs in the same manner with just 2 outputs from cubase into Scope (and only 2 channels set in the asio driver in scope)
http://tinyurl.com/8tzel
This project running in scope mode with only 2 outputs created coming from the asio driver (I used asio2float 64 in the example but also tried the asio source driver with the same results) gives me the glitches popping etc when no windows are moving around and a 50% vst load in vst. It doesn't make ANY difference if i set up more outputs coming from the driver or not.
If i run the same project inside scope in xtc mode i get a 20% vst load and no glitches, pretty well the same as when i run this same project on my similarly specced laptop(a centrino) The project contains the 4 vst instruments as you can see from the images plus a few of the tracks have waves Req 2 on them
http://tinyurl.com/cxjk7
How can this be explained?! 30% more vst load... As i said, i was getting the same issue in logic, which i was able to circumvent to a reasonable standard of usability, but the rebirth of this issue again in a more or less new sequencer gives me doubts as to whether this whole Scope thing is worth the hassle.
I haven't done this test in logic, but since that software is old now i really want to adopt to cubase SX, so it’s not really relevant. Through my posts about this issue on other music forums another scope user contacted me and said they had had the same problem and that they had eventually had to let their Scope system go in favour of something more simple, as the advantages of mixing inside the environment are outweighed by the playback issues.
Andrew
In the above mentioned post i was sending my outputs to the scope inputs for mixing inside scope, as I have been in logic and was now hoping to in cubase, however I’ve seen that the glitching still occurs in the same manner with just 2 outputs from cubase into Scope (and only 2 channels set in the asio driver in scope)
http://tinyurl.com/8tzel
This project running in scope mode with only 2 outputs created coming from the asio driver (I used asio2float 64 in the example but also tried the asio source driver with the same results) gives me the glitches popping etc when no windows are moving around and a 50% vst load in vst. It doesn't make ANY difference if i set up more outputs coming from the driver or not.
If i run the same project inside scope in xtc mode i get a 20% vst load and no glitches, pretty well the same as when i run this same project on my similarly specced laptop(a centrino) The project contains the 4 vst instruments as you can see from the images plus a few of the tracks have waves Req 2 on them
http://tinyurl.com/cxjk7
How can this be explained?! 30% more vst load... As i said, i was getting the same issue in logic, which i was able to circumvent to a reasonable standard of usability, but the rebirth of this issue again in a more or less new sequencer gives me doubts as to whether this whole Scope thing is worth the hassle.
I haven't done this test in logic, but since that software is old now i really want to adopt to cubase SX, so it’s not really relevant. Through my posts about this issue on other music forums another scope user contacted me and said they had had the same problem and that they had eventually had to let their Scope system go in favour of something more simple, as the advantages of mixing inside the environment are outweighed by the playback issues.
Andrew
i'm not sure what scope problem you're talking about...did you do a fresh install?(format and install)
sometimes and old os has problems and it's best to start fresh. i have both sx and logic 5 on my computer and both are flawless with minimal tweaking. you WILL NOT be able to use as many plugs in cubase as logic, but this is because of the way that cubase handles vsts, not because of the sound card. on the other hand, i find that less processing is needed in cubase. regardless, i can do plenty in sx. i regularly do 20-30 tracks with heavy processing with NO glitching at 44.1k and 4ms ulli.
it's hard to say what your problem is as i'm not in front of your machine. there should be very little performance difference between asio1 and asio2. i don't even hear much difference between the 24bit and 32bit drivers. with cubase, i use the asio2 24bit drivers. i have clients who like the asio2 flt(32bit FLOAT). the asio2 32 driver is 32bit INTEGER which is NOT supported by sx(although i don't think that's the problem).
what exactly is your configuration? what are your irq assignments?
sometimes and old os has problems and it's best to start fresh. i have both sx and logic 5 on my computer and both are flawless with minimal tweaking. you WILL NOT be able to use as many plugs in cubase as logic, but this is because of the way that cubase handles vsts, not because of the sound card. on the other hand, i find that less processing is needed in cubase. regardless, i can do plenty in sx. i regularly do 20-30 tracks with heavy processing with NO glitching at 44.1k and 4ms ulli.
it's hard to say what your problem is as i'm not in front of your machine. there should be very little performance difference between asio1 and asio2. i don't even hear much difference between the 24bit and 32bit drivers. with cubase, i use the asio2 24bit drivers. i have clients who like the asio2 flt(32bit FLOAT). the asio2 32 driver is 32bit INTEGER which is NOT supported by sx(although i don't think that's the problem).
what exactly is your configuration? what are your irq assignments?
I'm no expert for sequencers and vstis, but there's some probability that the CPU load of the GUI (SFP) is what causes the trouble.
Afaik GUI actions are NOT handled in a dedicated way by the graphcard alone (SFP is based on a cross-platform thing), hence they steal CPU cycles.
It has been reported that some graphcards deal with this better than others, but my memory fails on a brand...
You possibly can do some load balancing by adjusting priorities of sequencer and SFP, but the basic situation remains.
that's why I frequently suggest a dedicated SFP box. All studios (even home) have some 19" racked gear, so a server box doesn't really matter from real estate.
Any outdated Intel BX/I815 will do - you can get them almost for free today - plus some 8/16 channels Adat interface, starting from 120 bucks.
It may read strange at first, but imho it's even more simple and reliable than the all in one solution.
This thing runs nothing but SFP and is setup only once - behaves exactly like hardware.
cheers, Tom
Afaik GUI actions are NOT handled in a dedicated way by the graphcard alone (SFP is based on a cross-platform thing), hence they steal CPU cycles.
It has been reported that some graphcards deal with this better than others, but my memory fails on a brand...
You possibly can do some load balancing by adjusting priorities of sequencer and SFP, but the basic situation remains.
that's why I frequently suggest a dedicated SFP box. All studios (even home) have some 19" racked gear, so a server box doesn't really matter from real estate.
Any outdated Intel BX/I815 will do - you can get them almost for free today - plus some 8/16 channels Adat interface, starting from 120 bucks.
It may read strange at first, but imho it's even more simple and reliable than the all in one solution.
This thing runs nothing but SFP and is setup only once - behaves exactly like hardware.
cheers, Tom
Hi Gary, thanks for your response -
I’ve also remarked at how surprised I am that in XTC mode my example cubase project runs with 30% less vst load than in SFP.
When you say format and install you mean reinstall windows? Sure I will probably get to trying that eventually, but would rather try the alternatives before I go to that extreme. Perhaps I need to reinstall cubase and then SFP.
Cheers
Andrew
_________________
http://www.voiceofcod.com
http://www.organicrecords.net
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andrew on 2005-09-06 08:20 ]</font>
The Scope problem I’m talking about is the glitching I’m getting when moving elements of the scope gui around when running logic and SFP, which is much worse when running cubase and SFP(possibly because as you’ve said SX cannot run as many plugs as logic). However for glitching to be occuring when cubase is sitting on 50% load (without me moving any windows) seems a bit weird. The machine seems to have a hard time updating the meter levels of the various channels on the stm 4896, so perhaps to prove this issue is scope gui related i'll see what happens without the 4896 being displayed(by closing that window). Then if I don't move any windows around there should be no need for scope to update it's gui. However, I need to look at meter readings on the 4896 and move faders to mix, so this is not going to help for long.On 2005-09-05 13:43, garyb wrote:
i'm not sure what scope problem you're talking about...did you do a fresh install?(format and install)
I’ve also remarked at how surprised I am that in XTC mode my example cubase project runs with 30% less vst load than in SFP.
When you say format and install you mean reinstall windows? Sure I will probably get to trying that eventually, but would rather try the alternatives before I go to that extreme. Perhaps I need to reinstall cubase and then SFP.
I’m confused as to why SFP mode leaves me with so much less vst performance than XTC mode. I’ll try some of the other asio drivers in SFP and let you know how it goes. With regards to configuration, it’s a non ACPI install of windows XP as I was instructed was best by Creamware. The machine spec is an Intel P4 with 1GB Ram and 3.02ghz. I’ll post the relevant IRQ settings in an hour or so when I get home from work.it's hard to say what your problem is as i'm not in front of your machine. there should be very little performance difference between asio1 and asio2. i don't even hear much difference between the 24bit and 32bit drivers. with cubase, i use the asio2 24bit drivers. i have clients who like the asio2 flt(32bit FLOAT). the asio2 32 driver is 32bit INTEGER which is NOT supported by sx(although i don't think that's the problem).
what exactly is your configuration? what are your irq assignments?
Cheers
Andrew
_________________
http://www.voiceofcod.com
http://www.organicrecords.net
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andrew on 2005-09-06 08:20 ]</font>
Thanks Astroman - that sounds interesting.
No I wouldn't have a problem having another box in my studio, that would be just fine, but I'm not sure of the set up. You mean put the scope card in another computer, and run SFP on there ? If cubase is running on my main computer, then how does it see a soundcard? how are the two connected? What you've said about the GUI makes sense, the glitching is worse with more elements of the scope gui on screen.
Thanks
Andrew
No I wouldn't have a problem having another box in my studio, that would be just fine, but I'm not sure of the set up. You mean put the scope card in another computer, and run SFP on there ? If cubase is running on my main computer, then how does it see a soundcard? how are the two connected? What you've said about the GUI makes sense, the glitching is worse with more elements of the scope gui on screen.
Thanks
Andrew
will try that symbiote.
here's my irq settings. the graphics card is a matrox running 2 screens)
http://www.andrewsden.net/andrewIRQ.jpg
Thanks for any advice
Andrew
here's my irq settings. the graphics card is a matrox running 2 screens)
http://www.andrewsden.net/andrewIRQ.jpg
Thanks for any advice
Andrew
yeah, the SFP system would be completely on it's own.On 2005-09-06 08:15, andrew wrote:
... You mean put the scope card in another computer, and run SFP on there ? If cubase is running on my main computer, then how does it see a soundcard? how are the two connected? ...
the physical connection is via adat (a single Scope 'classic IO' provides 16in/16out channels)
the 'logical' connection (what you see in the sequencer) are Asio channels of the main DAW (assigned to respective adat lines) - which means that you need (additionally) one or more adat interfaces.
Since these have become really affordable it's not an obstacle imho, compared to the situation some years ago.
Valis here has such a setup and he already described it's details.
of course we all regret that CWA has limited resources and cannot afford to perfectly adapt to all recent hardware and OS changes (the cards were designed 7 years ago).
In that context it's much simpler (and more reliable) to provide a vintage 'sandbox'.
you could easily install Win98 or a stripped down W2K plus SFP on a 1 GB flash disk, so there are not even moving parts in the box.
cheers, Tom
Also about IRQs, try going in the BIOS and disabling the unused stuff (COM port 1 and 2, Parallel port, USB if you don't use it, etc.) to free up some IRQs.
Might also want to check in Control Panel -> System -> Hardware -> Device Manager -> Computer -> right click on Standard PC -> IRQ Steering, and make sure it's turned off (thingy should be unticked.) Then you should be able to specify a particular IRQ for you CW card's PCI slot. This is assuming you are running in Standard PC mode, otherwise ignore this paragraph.
Might also want to check in Control Panel -> System -> Hardware -> Device Manager -> Computer -> right click on Standard PC -> IRQ Steering, and make sure it's turned off (thingy should be unticked.) Then you should be able to specify a particular IRQ for you CW card's PCI slot. This is assuming you are running in Standard PC mode, otherwise ignore this paragraph.
I haven't forgotten all the other suggestions, I'm just keeping em and the experimental outcome in a file, but the irq thing feels like it could be right, so following that trail for a bit.
Ok - my machine is a standard pc as I've said, I've just turned off irq steering (which sounds like another form of acpi) and been and disabled the 2 serial ports in the bios.
now my irq looks like this :
http://www.andrewsden.net/andrewsIRQ2.jpg
a little better it's moved 2 of the things that we're on 5 to 4 which the coms we're on. So should I now try moving the card to a different slot? will i need to reinstall sfp to do this ? thanks in advance
Andrew
_________________
http://www.voiceofcod.com
http://www.organicrecords.net
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andrew on 2005-09-06 12:37 ]</font>
Ok - my machine is a standard pc as I've said, I've just turned off irq steering (which sounds like another form of acpi) and been and disabled the 2 serial ports in the bios.
now my irq looks like this :
http://www.andrewsden.net/andrewsIRQ2.jpg
a little better it's moved 2 of the things that we're on 5 to 4 which the coms we're on. So should I now try moving the card to a different slot? will i need to reinstall sfp to do this ? thanks in advance
Andrew
_________________
http://www.voiceofcod.com
http://www.organicrecords.net
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andrew on 2005-09-06 12:37 ]</font>
yes, disable unused ports first and switch slots if nessessary to get scope on it's own irq, then things should be fine....the sm bus controller won't be a problem, butr htere's a lot of other things that coulds be including another sound device(onboard maybe? disable it in bios) with no driver and ALL your usb resources sharing with the graph card! are you using a usb mouse? if so, use a ps2 one...
you could clean up this install a lot...
you could clean up this install a lot...
thanks gary,
ok i have reduced to 2 usb ports (i need one to occasionally put a usb stick in and my bios only had settings for disabling usb or having 2, 4 ,6 or 8 usb ports)
& turned the onboard sound from auto to disabled. looking much more healthy - see image :
http://www.andrewsden.net/andrewsIRQ3.jpg
is sharing with the firewire controller going to be a problem? will test it anyway and see. not sure if you read my question about reinstalling scope if I move the card?
Andrew
_________________
http://www.voiceofcod.com
http://www.organicrecords.net
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andrew on 2005-09-06 12:53 ]</font>
ok i have reduced to 2 usb ports (i need one to occasionally put a usb stick in and my bios only had settings for disabling usb or having 2, 4 ,6 or 8 usb ports)
& turned the onboard sound from auto to disabled. looking much more healthy - see image :
http://www.andrewsden.net/andrewsIRQ3.jpg
is sharing with the firewire controller going to be a problem? will test it anyway and see. not sure if you read my question about reinstalling scope if I move the card?
Andrew
_________________
http://www.voiceofcod.com
http://www.organicrecords.net
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andrew on 2005-09-06 12:53 ]</font>
You've improved your IRQ config, but you'll still have to move the Scope card to another PCI slot to get it away from the firwire controller. Your motherboard manual should list what slots share with what mboard resources. If you're not using any firwire devices, you can just disable it in BIOS and leave the Scope where it is.
You won't have to reinstall Scope software, but it's a good idea to disable the start project before you move the card. You'll need to reinstall the driver only. You can re enable the Start project after the driver is reinstalled.
/dave
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dbmac on 2005-09-06 13:00 ]</font>
You won't have to reinstall Scope software, but it's a good idea to disable the start project before you move the card. You'll need to reinstall the driver only. You can re enable the Start project after the driver is reinstalled.
/dave
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: dbmac on 2005-09-06 13:00 ]</font>
Nah, you shouldn't need to re-install SFP if you move the PCI card around in a new slot, keep that for the end if nothing else works.
Might want to try putting the CW card on one of the unused IRQs (7, 9, 14) in your BIOS, if that doesn't work/change anything, then try the switch-card-around trick.
Something else to look at, make sure the PCI slot the CW card is in isn't sharing an IRQ with the AGP/other occupied slot. Your motherboard's manual should specify which slots (if any) share IRQs and/or other ressources.
Might want to try putting the CW card on one of the unused IRQs (7, 9, 14) in your BIOS, if that doesn't work/change anything, then try the switch-card-around trick.
Something else to look at, make sure the PCI slot the CW card is in isn't sharing an IRQ with the AGP/other occupied slot. Your motherboard's manual should specify which slots (if any) share IRQs and/or other ressources.
-
Guest
ok, so when we built the computer my mate and I followed the instructions in the mobo quick setup guide(asus p4c800 deluxe) which stop at 'connect the peripherals and accessories' and don't mention running the disk... so we probably didn't. Found the disk and reading the manual now (which has a lot more than the quick start guide)On 2005-09-06 13:09, garyb wrote:
ditto to the other posts, BUT...
i see a question mark on the smbus controller. did you install your motherboard's drivers? that'd be very important....
I was in a real hurry to get the new mobo in and running so I could MAKE MUSIC
thanks all for all your tips, will come back when i know much more about my mobo/bios etc
Andrew
<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: andrew on 2005-09-06 13:40 ]</font>